The Imperfect Community

[Anthromomma]

Anybody want to share their general thoughts on table manners? I have several questions, because I had an experience recently that is making me wonder if I'm a big old fashioned freak or not.

Is it important to you that your children learn traditional table manners? Is this a priority in your household, a non-issue, something in between?

At what age do you start expecting children to exhibit these types of behaviors (using utensils correctly, using a napkin, chewing with their mouths closed, not getting up without asking to be excused, etc-- obviously this may vary based on what is important to you).

How do you teach/ expect your kids to learn these types of things: reminders, modeling, punishments, leaving them to forage in the wild in hopes that the etiquette fairy may find them?

Any other thoughts on the subject?

Thanks. I'll come back with my answers in a bit.

Erika

[MedeaNJ]

Well speaking for my 2yo todders, they are getting better at saying 'please' and 'thank you', though the latter usually needs some friendly reminding. Signing or speaking is acceptable.

They are using a fork, but in the last week or so they are finding it easier eat with their fingers, which we are trying to nip in the bud. Throwing a hissy fit at this time is not worth it. Eating with a spoon is messy, but they do not go out of their way to make one.

Banging silverware, throwing food, or tossing sippys is not tolerated, they get only one warning and then supper over if they disobey. This also goes for them having a temper tantrum at the table and tries to push their dish off the table in anger. There is no second warning on that one. Believe me, when they realize that they go hungry when they don't behave, they clean up their act real fast.

We have not found a need to yell at the table. But I must admit I become a pressure cooker on some days.

They are still wearing large bibs instead of using napkins, but they are expected to wipe their own faces with a damp washcloth or paper towel after eating (which they love doing anyway).

If they want to be excused from the table, they sign 'finished'. If they did not eat much, we tell them that once they leave the table, there is no more eating...period. Usually they will eat a little more before asking again.

Frankly, I applaud anyone who instills old-fashioned manners. I cannot understand why parents are either so reluctant or do not care to instill these manners. Is it that they do not want to hit their children (which they should NOT anyway!)? Or that they are hell-bent in making sure the child does not miss a meal? Is it that they feel that the child's school should take care of teaching manners? Simple table manners does lead to politeness in other areas. It need not be impeccable as Judith Martin.

There is a great story in Richard Scarry's Best Storybook Ever called, 'The Polite Elephant'. I do not know if this story is available on it's own. It shows basic table manners, and how to behave when he visits a friend's house and how to be a good host when Elephant's friends come to visit him. Though I must admit the 'tipping of the hat' is a bit dated, but the message is loud and clear. It is funny that when one of the twins misbehaves I will ask as an example, "<name>, you took <name>'s toy without asking. Would the polite Elephant do that?" Sometimes they understand, other times they do not and I have to resort to other methods.

Bottom line is modeling behavior is top priority. The punishments come secondary depending on how old they are and how complex the situation is.

Kids imitate what they see on TV or their peers. Regarding the TV, from what I have viewed in recent years characters are self-centered and rude with little or no influence on how an individual is expected to behave in a positive manner. That is not to say shut off the TV, rather a discussion between parent and children asking whether such behavior that they see on television is appropriate.

Off the soapbox.

[Petulant Pixie]

I think we're in-between.

I want my kids to not be an embarrassment in public, that's my goal, lol. So, starting when they are seated at a real chair at the table (which is what, like 2-3ish?), we give them prompts and reminders. Don't chew with your mouth open, sit right at the table, don't talk with your mouth full, etc.. There was a time when Mike was punishing Alex for chewing with his mouth open (he'd make him leave the table for a minute). I didn't necessarily agree with it, but, well, there it was. Now Katie is about the same age as Alex was when this was happening and she's doing it, too. So, I wonder if it's something with lost teeth and new teeth coming in or something.

We don't have the kids ask per se if they should be excused from the table. We just have them start putting their napkins on their laps when they get the other stuff under control. It's not a big deal for us. We just don't want them to be embarrassing, as I said.

[MedeaNJ]

Now that this topic was brought up. I had a little fun in looking for a few websites regarding table manners in general.

I found a cute one here.

I guess I eventually have to teach my children that at the dinner table they are to stand behind their chair until all the adults are seated.

I guess I am more boorish than I thought!

[Petulant Pixie]

[DietCokeHead]

Here are some of the things we expect and are working on.

*Sit in your chair, no standing ON the chair.
*Dont talk with mouth full
*Use a napking and utensils
*dont blow bubbles in your milk until they spill over the top or you lose the straw cup!
*ask to be excused when finished

I think the chewing with mouth closed is hard for kids, I don't know why! We are always having to tell Jack to close his mouth when he chews.

[Anthromomma]

The reason I'm asking is, we saw some good friends whom we hadn't seen in over a year this week. They have two boys, one who just turned 5 (a year older than my oldest) and a 1/1/2 yr old. In general, our parenting philosophies are pretty similar, and I've always considered their older ds to be pretty well behaved, and our friends to be 'good parents.' We went to dinner a few nights ago, and I was honestly shocked. He (the 5 year old) chewed-- no, chomped with his mouth open, shouted across the table repeatedly, took things off of Seamus's plate without asking, kept getting up and running around, and his dad actually fed him his applesauce, because he was making a mess with his spoon. Seriously, we were in a loud, very kid-friendly family style Italian restaurant, and I was a bit embarrassed. Oh, and our friends were looking at us like we were crazy disciplinarians for reminding our kids to sit down on their behinds, use their napkins, etc. I thought maybe most of this was just due to excitement or excess energy, but he was the same way the next day at lunch.

I never thought we were over the top at all with our expectations. Our kids are 4 and 2 1/2 and I'm fairly certain that our expectations are age-appropriate. Seamus can use a fork, spoon and chopsticks fairly appropriately, and he also understands napkin usage (keep it in your lap, clean fingers and face when required). Ainsley manages pretty well for a 2 year old-- we'll still feed her soup if we're out in public, but for the most part, she can feed herself with utensils with minimal mess, so we don't really let her use her fingers when it's not finger food. Chewing with mouth open is a peeve of mine, so I'm probably pretty strict about that, but I don't think we've ever had to consider punishment or consequences-- just a lot of reminding. The only real consequence we have regarding mealtimes is that no one is allowed to scream or yell at the table, and if you can't keep yourself collected, you have to remove yourself to another room because everyone else has a right to eat in peace(this goes for adults in a pissy mood, too ). I'm a big believer in modeling with regard to table manners-- 90% of the time, we eat dinner together at the table with no outside distractions. If we're at home, they have to ask to be excused if they'd like to leave the table, take their plate to the sink once they're excused, and then they can play quietly in their bedroom until dinner is over. This last part is because we live in a condo, and we basically have a great room (kitchen/dining/living area) and two bedrooms, so this falls under the 'eat in peace' rule. At restaurants, we don't allow the kids to get up at all, unless we're headed to the restroom or leaving.

Dh and I consider this to be an important issue, mainly based on our own childhood experiences. Dh grew up in a household where meals were rarely eaten together, and no one ever really taught him what is considered proper. Once he was on his own, he has felt at a serious disadvantage at several times in his life because he's had to learn these things for himself. His current field requires a lot of networking, and he's still very self conscious about dining in formal settings. My parents, on the other hand, were crazy sticklers about all things etiquette. While I don't think that their methods were necessarily the best, I really do appreciate the effort they put in with us because I can see my dh struggling with things that are, to me, second nature.

[MedeaNJ]

...and speaking of French, I work for a French company.

A few years back I put together this departmental dinner, which included a bunch of out of town visitors.

We all sat at our tables and salad was served. I was expecting my boss to do some sort of speech, instead the whole room just went silent and all eyes were on me. I thought I would die!

I scrambled with my brains and the only thing I could blurt out was, 'bon appetit'.

Turned out it was the right call and every one started eating happily.

I was taught in the corporate world that those of highest rank makes the first move, especially at dinner.

I still wonder to this day if it was some kind of practical joke, but the matter passed and no talked about it ever since.

[julymom]

I don't know if we are "strict" because we've never had any problems and rarely have to correct ds. He likes to eat too well to not get dinner. We do require that he sit in a chair (he's still in a booser, because it makes it easier for him to reach his food), use untensils and napkins, and sit at the table until everyone is finished (with the exception of holiday meals with extended family members, where when he's finished he can ask to be excused as meals are loooooong). He's usually the last one finished when we eat at home though (because he likes to talk to us during dinner), so getting him to stay seated through a meal isn't really a problem. He is NEVER allowed up at a restaurant unless we are leaving. I hate, hate, HATE when people let their kids run around.

[Anthromomma]

I did want to add that I don't really make it a habit of judging my friends' parenting skills, but I was really thrown for a loop this week and I wanted to see if my expectations were out of the norm.

Erika

[Petulant Pixie]

My standards seem similar to all of yours. The not using utensils is a new one for me, lol, my kids were always eager to use utensils. Liz at 15 1/2 months uses her fork more often than her fingers, so it's just never something that we've addressed!

I think the thing about asking to be excused isn't an issue with us either, since we have always had to spell out how much our kids had to eat before they could leave Katie still gets most of her nutrients from the air. Alex is an eater now, but that only happened in the past couple of years. Before that with him (and currently with Katie), it's, "You have to eat this many bites of this, half of that, all of that and then you can be done." Katie's usually last done, still and then they just help us clear the table.

[MedeaNJ]

Oh, man! I had the 'table manners from hell' dinner last night with the twins.

We started dinner about an hour late (6:30pm), so I figured some parmesan soy patties and cut tomatoes would be OK (hell, I was even willing to forego the forks for one night).

It was not the food that was the problem, DS decided to have a spitting contest with his sister as to who can spit their water and soy milk the farthest. Usually DD is the one who usually stirs up trouble, but this time it was my sweet little mild-mannered boy! I cleaned up the table and said, 'one warning, we do not spit.' Well both did it again. I took away their drinks and dinner. 'Mealtime over. Take your vitamins and we will get ready for bed.'

As I was getting the vitamins put together. DS had the tenacity of giving me an innocent look and was signing 'cookie.' It took every ounce of my being not to yell at this kid...he's only 2.

Of course by my saying 'no cookie' turned into a real battle to get them to have their vitamins.

I don't know if I am being a tyrannical bitch or if I am doing the right thing.

[Petulant Pixie]

No, you're not being a tyrannical bitch. It wasn't the spitting or the table manners that was the issue, it was that you outlined clearly what they were to NOT do, and they outright defied you. So you absolutely HAD to follow through. This is when the real learning happens, Lisa, and following through is what makes it happen. It starts with spitting at the table and saying no to cookies and carries over into telling them to STOP at the curb and they do and therefore don't get hit by a car. This lesson is crucial and it's the hardest to do. Saying no cookies to 2 year-olds is about as bad as it gets, lol, since you just feel like a bitch, I mean, it's only a cookie and he's only two, right? Wrong, it's part of a much bigger picture. Good for you! We all thank you for doing the right thing, your kids will be much nicer people for it