The Imperfect Community

Princesso · Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2005 9:53 pm Post subject: Kindergarten

Here they can start kindergarten at four as long as they are five before Dec 1, so they are younger than a lot of kinders elsewhere in the country. My son just turned four and as you may recall, he is in a special education preschool. At his IEP, they said he is ready for K because he knows his letters and sounds and numbers. By the time they get to first, they are expected to be writing sentences, reading stories with 5-6 sentences on a page, and doing simple addition and subtraction. I think it is too much for kids that are so young.

I am retaining one of my students. She turned five three days before the k cutoff and is the youngest in the grade level, almost a full year younger than many of the other kids. She simply was not ready developmentally to read and sit and do work. She was recommended for retention in K and again in first and mom just now is agreeing to do it. She acts like a first grader and will fit in with them just fine next year. Academically, she may still struggle, but she will hopefully be more prepared to function successfully socially and emotionally next year. I think if it is done at a young age and noone makes a big deal out of it, then the child won't either.

mommy2three · Imperfect Parent Joined: 20 Dec 2002 Posts: 1674

Petulant Pixie · Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 7:44 am Post subject: Kindergarten

Is it No Child Left Behind though? Because the parents I see around here are really competitive with the academics.

I know several moms who really push their kids academically. One mom has her son in Alex's 4th grade and her other son in the public kindergarten--because the public kindergarten has a full-day option (half day is free, full day program costs more than what I'm paying for tuition for Katie Rolling Eyes

) and the public school kindergarten is very agressive.

She asked me a few weeks ago, "Sooooo, in Katie's class, are they reading or journaling AT ALL?" I said no, and she just said, "Hmmmm, interesting." I know damn well that the school her kid is in has been having them read since Christmas break.

But, there's no point in explaining what they DO do in Katie's class and how it is so superior. Katie's teacher is very into projects. They are multi-task, multi-directional projects, where the teacher tells them what to do, shows them what it's supposed to look like at the end and then puts on the CD player with happy music and lets 'em roll. They're responsible for sorting out what they need, getting what they need, keeping track of their stuff and working out the steps to finish the project in time. The projects have gotten more complex and harder as the year has progressed and it's really cool because they're learning so much, but they have no idea they're learning. This kind of "teaching" is so important when you get to the later years, when kids are trying to do hard math (like fractions and long division), but have no brain organization skills, so they're hopping all over the place, not knowing how to follow a sequence. It's important in a billion other ways, too. But, it can't be measured or bragged about, so lots of parents don't understand why it's important.

Of course, Katie's school does gym (twice a week) music (once a week), spanish (twice a week), library (once a week), computers (once a week) and they do their little worksheets every day all in the 2.5 hours a day, lol. Then they get to learn through play at home. I just think it's perfect and I hope that some schools will hold onto this old fashioned kindergarten program for a long time.

But, the competitiveness doesn't stop at kindergarten either, sadly. The same mom has put her older kid in academic camps every summer. You know, like 4 week long camps where they do advanced math and science. I guess this camp is one where you have to be
recommended by the school and the teacher to go. It's $2000 a week and it's a two hour drive from where we live and she did it for him for 2 summers in a row. Now, she's all pissy this year because the teacher they have doesn't recommend anyone to go, he says that kids work hard all year and they shouldn't attend summer school unless they're behind. Yeah, this is the same teacher I complained about with all the homework earlier in the year. A few moms are pissy about it. They're kids might lose some "edge" if they don't go to this camp this summer Rolling Eyes

And, I do this book club in Alex's class. I love it, it's a blast. It's my own creation. I worked with the teacher to mold it out from scratch. We picked a list of 8 appropriate books, the kids voted and we picked the 4 most popular titles. Out of those 4, the kids get to read the three that are thier first choices. I meet with the kids every week--6 kids in each group (each group reading a different book), with 4 groups, and I guide the discussions. But, the table is theirs. We talk about characters, writing style, plot devices and stuff like that. Some of the kids that were the "worst" readers have really learned to shine, finishing the books quickly and talking a lot about the books. The already good readers find lots of things in the books to examine and talk about. It's a blast.

But...oh, it isn't very agressive. I've had a couple moms question what I'm doing. First off, the kids chose their own books, instead of being assigned according to reading group. So, the advanced readers are in the same groups as the normal paced readers (horror!), and some of the kids who are advanced readers (like the lady I've been talking about, her son) haven't chosen the hardest book yet (The Giver). She feels he should be assigned to read it, since he can. And, I don't have written assignments. Their only assignment is to read the chapters and then talk about the book. It's just bullshit.

Anyway, I talked to the teacher about it, and he said no, this book club should not be more agressive. The kids are getting enough just by reading the books and learning to discuss them. And I agree.

So, in our case, the teachers and the administration are really good, but the PARENTS are pushing for harsher requirements.

DietCokeHead · Queen of Imperfection Joined: 29 Apr 2002 Posts: 3805

PP- Does Katies teacher follow the Project Approach by Reggio? It kind if sounds like it. Some teachers around here are into it but i have never seen it in action, I would like to learn more about it though. What kinds of projects are they working on now?

Scout · Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 9:10 am Post subject: Kindergarten

The whole NCLB thing is such an underfunded, test-hyping bundle of bs, it kills me. We do need a program to even the playing field for kids, but this is totally not it.

PP, I like that project approach. I feel so lucky that Calvin had an awesom K teacher and that we have had such a good experience with his school. It makes me nervous that I will have to pay my dues with Joshua. Confused

I'm kind of torn on the age issue, though, because I was almost a full year younger than everyone in my class, started K when I was four and all that, and I have always felt like it was kind of an advantage for me. I can see how some kids need more time, and I definitely don't think they should be pushed. But I do think some kids are ready.

I have a good friend who's really into the competitive academics, and I really hate it and have seen the negative effects. Her oldest is also in 1st grade this year. While he was in 1/2-day Kindergarten, she was sending him to her MIL who is an elementary teacher for reading lessons 2 hours at a time several times a week Shocked

Now, she chose the optional (magnet) school with the highest scores rather than the best overall environment, and they do 2 hours of homework a night. And her kid has had a lot of problems and was on probation earlier in the year (they have to qualify for Optional). He's a bright kid but very active and imaginative, and I think all the academic push is going to push him right into hating school. I guess we'll see. Calvin is also in an Optional program, but they don't push or pile on busy work just to make a point. He loves school, loves to read, does fine with the homework system (they get a packet to be completed by the end of the week, which I think is good for teaching pacing and time management). Some of that is just his temperment, but I think he could have easily been turned off by the wrong approach.

Petulant Pixie · Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 11:12 am Post subject: Kindergarten

Annie, no, it's not that in-depth, lol. It's a very mild form of that. They do take a "theme", either religious (since it's a Catholic school), or seasonal as the basis, and they do songs and stories and art projects with that theme.

But, really what I'm fascinated by is the art projects. They're told what they need to do and shown what the end result will look like, then they, individually, need to get their scizzors, glue, crayons, pencils, etc., and go to their seats and devise a plan (in their heads) of how to go about making the papers in front of them look like the thing the teacher held up.

If these were things to do with my kids at home, I'd be hovering over them, taking them through the steps as *I* saw fit, guiding, nudging, encouraging them to keep up the pace. But, with just the teacher and a helper with 24 kids, that's impossible. The teacher just turns on the music and goes about doing other things. She's there to answer questions, but she really doesn't oversee any of their work as they do it. They figure it out themselves, and share their ideas with the kids at their tables and they all finish in the allotted time.

They started out with really simple things. Now, they're into projects with moving parts (like pinwheels and robots with moving arms and legs) with like 20 parts and a dozen different steps to figure out. I really don't know if this is part of any specific cirriculum, but I am really amazed at how well the kids can DO this stuff and how those who finish first automatically go around helping the others.

I understand next year, they'll have their little noses to the grindstone, really focusing on reading and writing. But, this year, they're learning about learning, learning how to cooperate, and learning about the school enviornment. Which I think is being lost when you just force them to work on reading right away.

mommy2three · Imperfect Parent Joined: 20 Dec 2002 Posts: 1674

NCLB...yeah yeah yeah; the myth is tht it is underfunded. Its not; at least not here in NY; not in my region and not in my district. Its just another incarnation of what we have always had. This incarnation hopefully tho will allow people in this region to be assured that their kids will get an equitable education.

Just yesterday a prestigious school district administration was reported to have pilfered 11 million dollars...no one noticed. ???? NO ONE NOTICED? And we have politicians crying foul in NYS because NCLB is underfunded? Laughing

Sewingsiren · Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 8:15 am Post subject: Re: Kindergarten

mommy2three · Imperfect Parent Joined: 20 Dec 2002 Posts: 1674

I hate school,

My second child got nothing out of Kindergarden...I was fearful that he would have problems throughout his school career because all he wanted to do was play, didn't want to read, didn't see the point of learning to write, didn't want to do endless worksheets. Kindergarden was a bust for him; total opposite of his older sister...I was a raving loon with him.

He had a teacher who was "doing her time in K" waiting for a 5th grade position in the middleschool...her heart was just not into the little kids (she admitted this to me once my olderst had her in 5th) So it was a waste of a year. poor ds had the misfortune of having a teacher I disliked immensely in 1st grade, tho at the time I thought "eh she's so damned regimented it might be a good thing"....he didn't enjoy school until 2nd grade, had a creative, *fun* teacher. Looking back at all this and knowing what I now know about curriculum development and "control classrooms" ....eh! he showed them Laughing

He did well despite the lack of "creative, innovative programs" in kindergarden and 1st grade. Why? because while the school was shoving "dick and jane" readers down his throat, I was handing the kid catalogs which he adored looking at, boys life was being read at bedtime and his dad was showing him the wonders of small engines. He learned to read despite the school.

SS please know that you are the ONLY advocate for your child; work hard at changing the things you don't like about your local school and don't be so quick to assume that your child is the only one in the class reacting this way; he probably isn't.

Sewingsiren · Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 8:46 am Post subject: Kindergarten

Jessica, PP, and M23, I also hate that fucking No Child Left Behind shit. And another phrase that just brings out the low level ,street fighting, trash talking ,inner demons in me is " Dumbing Down" . I really hate it when I hear someone say that.
I just want to do right by my son and not destroy his self esteem in the process. I thought if I read to them every day, and taught them how to listen and sit still they were suppose to be "ready to learn" and everything was suppose to go along fine. Why is this so damn hard? Crying or Very sad

Sewingsiren · Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 8:54 am Post subject: Kindergarten

http://forums.atozteacherstuff.com/showthread.php?t=8359&page=1&pp=27
DCH and honeybee,
Would you mind viewing this thread that is on a Kindergarten teachers website? It is a discussion about the merits of "Retention".
The kids that the teachers are talking about on this thread are nothing like my son (and the teacher is still asking if retention is the answer). Is this the "typical" case for retention?

DietCokeHead · Queen of Imperfection Joined: 29 Apr 2002 Posts: 3805

SS- I just read the first post in that string but yes, the child mentioned sounds like more of a typical candidate for retention IMO. I am just judging from his academic skills that were mentioned. It's all very subjective though, that is why it is hard to give advice! In my school we would have a hard time sending on a student that did not know all their letters and sounds but in some schools that might not be a big deal.

But, retention is not going to be successful if parents are not behind it and clearly you are not liking the idea. I think it sounds insane anyway to consider retaining your son if he knows all or most of the criteria that was listed in your other post! You know what is best for your son!!

MainstreamMom · Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2005 4:14 pm Post subject: Kindergarten

I think I'm finally at peace with the fact that Jack won't be starting K til he is turning 6. The more I read and talk to teachers I think it's the best thing. The K program at the school we are sending Jack to is a full day program so it's pretty much like first grade. He'll have done three years of preschool before entering K. That sure seems like a lot though, huh?

Oh and I wanted to add that I don't have a choice in the matter. Mass state law says the child must be 5 by August 31st and Jack was born in September!

DietCokeHead · Queen of Imperfection Joined: 29 Apr 2002 Posts: 3805

Chris- what are you doing with him next year? Is he doing a 2 day program again? I think he will be fine starting at almost 6. All sorts of mature and ready! Cool

honeybee · Queen of Imperfection Joined: 20 Dec 2002 Posts: 3164

this seems to have something to do with the AAP:

http://www.schoolhealth.org/ready.htm

"Kindergarten and first grade retention. There is often no achievement benefit in retaining a child in kindergarten or first grade, and regardless of how well the extra year is presented to the child, the child may still pay an emotional cost.

Retention and transition classes. Repeating kindergarten and the so called "transition" classes have widespread support.

Research findings show that these assumptions are almost totally erroneous. Contrary to popular belief, repeating a grade does not help a student gain ground academically and has a negative impact on social adjustment and self-esteem."