The Imperfect Community

ExCareerGal

but here is my dilemma. I went to church this Sunday and other than their being some things I find a bit off (like testimonies and a lot of emotional stuff) I still got the ending message that the only way to G-d is through Christ. I am totally cool with that being one way, and maybe the main way for Christians, but I am having trouble getting my brain around it being the only way for everyone- even those who live godly lives but have never heard of Christ ( like in china) or chose to be good for other reasons (Their own interpretation of God or social justice).

Growing up Psuedo-Jewish I was allowed to pray to G-d directly. I am trying to raise my kids Jewish and Christian but though the Jews do not say Christianity is wrong (it is acutally considered kind of irrelevant from what I can tell), Christains do say that the Jews were wrong (which makes sense from a historical point of view). Is there any church out there that believes there is more than one way to salvation, heaven, or being a good person?

I just want my kids to be good, do good works for others , and have good lives witout feeling their way is right and the other ways are wrong. There is something about that idea of "my way only" that totally feels completely un-God like to me. I kind of feel if I believe in G-d he created us all and loves us all and there are many ways to lead a godly life. Even an athiest is loved and can lead a good life!

Most religions seem more similar than different to me and I find everyone takes what seems authentic from religions and disreguards the rest. My problem is that one aspect of one true wayseems phony about all religions. I hate that they seem devisive rather than inclusive. Is this all in my head? Or is there other people who feel the same way? Will I have to avoid organized religions to make sure my kids are not told they are superior to others who believe differently? Or will that do the same thing I am trying to avoid?

Sorry for the ramble but you all are so smart!
Janna

Jessica · Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 5:32 pm Post subject:

I can totally see your dilemma.

From what I understand, Bahai, Unitarian and The United Church of Christ are some of the most liberal and least fire and brimstone.

Holden is actually going to vacation Bible school next week at a United Church of Christ where there's a female pastor and they marry gay couples. I might talk the talk, but I don't like fundie churches at all. In fact, I'm not all that crazy about the concept of churches to begin with. I mean, I'm glad they exist so that people have a place to gather in a community and share a common goal, but I'm much too non-commital and anti-hokey to deal with that. I'd rather have my own relationship with God, rather than join a club to show my devotion (not that there's anything wrong with that).

Oh, and the question about a man up in a mountain who doesn't know how to read and lives by himself and never finds religion, let alone Christianity--there are many interpretations of this amongst different Christian affliations. Major fundamentalists think that they will not be saved because God works in mysterious ways and will always allow for everyone (except children, who are exempt I think) to know the word of the Lord.

Most Christians, IME however, believe that they will have a chance after death to accept or deny Jesus as God's son while proof lies before them. This is the way that I have been brought up. <shrugs>

Petulant Pixie · Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 5:49 pm Post subject:

Yeah, this was a big issue for me, too. I don't believe it and I refuse to buy into a system that does. In my RCIA stuff to become Catholic, it was one of the things that I flat out asked our priest about and he said no, that the church does not believe that you have to be Christian in order to be saved. In the official doctrines, they say that those who have a chance to "know" Christ, but turn away will not be saved, and I asked the priest about it and he kind of squirmed and said, "Well, but do they really know Christ?" It was funny at the time, but since then I've come to realize that really, who does know Christ, even if you spend a lifetime studing and worshipping Him?

The best line from that Kingdom of Heaven movie (Orlando Bloom) was when he said something like--your God will understand, and if He doesn't, then He wasn't God in the first place. I think you need to just approach these things with some common sense--would and all good God really deny people salvation over something like that? My opinion is no.

TheBean · Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 1:55 pm Post subject:

I'm not a theologian, nor am I really a "preachy" kind of person with my religious views...but this is my take on the question.

There are churches out there that will be more relaxed on this subject and will preach that there are different ways to go to heaven...or hell. There are other churches that won't preach a heaven or a hell.

The churches I've been affliated with, as well as the bible I've been reading dont' talk of Jews as the "enemy" - but rather we should be praying for peace in Israel. In fact, I think in the old testement it talks about the future covenent - and how the jews are to be preparing a place for the Messiah to return to. I think that Israel, being made a nation back in the 1940's, is a fullfillment of that prophecy...its a homeland for the Jewish people to prepare for the future return of the Messiah. I personally think that when the Messiah - who I believe is Jesus Christ - returns - it will be a mute point that many Jews don't believe Jesus "was" the Messiah. They will recognize him when He returns - and all will be good.

I basically have come to this conclusion/belief. There is a heaven...there is a hell. When I die, I'm going to one or the other. The way to heaven is through Christ. I don't think of God as a pissy, ready to kick me off the road to heaven diety. My understanding is that we are saved by grace - and grace alone. The grace I know in Christ is patient, kind, merciful, longsuffering, anxious to bless and care for me and all people. Along this road of life, I'm going to veer off the rightous path -I'm only human after all. But if I have good intentions, and try to live a grace filled life - it should all work out in the end, as long as I keep my faith in Him.

His ways are not mine. He may choose to bestow his grace on some dude in China that I would probably think - WTH. I don't really concern myself with who is, or isn't going to heaven. I know I should be sharing more about the bible to others that haven't heard - that is something that was drilled into me as a child. But that is totally out of my comfort zone - and I don't feel that God has given me that spiritual gift. So, I do other things to support His teachings.

But, I also think this - God will honor our choices. If we chose not to accept Him - he will allow that. But...I do think He will continue to reach out with a grace of repentance to bring us closer to Him...whether you be in China....or Kalamazoo.

I think that those that have never heard of Jesus, will have a chance to get to know him and either accept or deny him at some point.

And that's just my 2 cents/thoughts on the matter. I could be wrong...but I could be right.

Scout · Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 5:38 pm Post subject:

I think you should visit Neshoba Unitarian. I've heard good things about it. If I felt any impulse whatsoever to try going to church, that's where I'd prolly go. But that's not likely. Wink

ExCareerGal · Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 8:19 pm Post subject:

Thanks for the replies everyone. I am glad I am not the only one who has a problem with it. It seems os "un Christian" to say only your way of doing things is right!

Quote from Jessica:
From what I understand, Bahai, Unitarian and The United Church of Christ are some of the most liberal and least fire and brimstone. [/quote]

I checked out Bahai before and though I agree with a lot of it I cannot go along with th anti-gay thing. The United Church of Christ seems pretty cool for Christians but they do not support Israel (which is tough to do this week but overall is something I try to do). Unitarian/universalism seems to be the closest to what I was talking about and there are 3 in the area. A tiny one by the university, a fairly big one by the river, and a fairly new smaller church in Cordova that Scout suggests. From looking at the websites, the Neshoba one looks more laid back than the one on the River. They also seem almost agnostic rather than Christain in some ways ( which is probably what I am). I may have to check them out but I do not like the drive. Thanks for the suggestions!

Janna

Scout · Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 8:30 pm Post subject:

I did visit the Church of the River years ago, when Calvin was little, and found it surprisingly stuffy and formal. It was very new England Unitarian to me. Like I got the feeling it was a lot of upper-middle class white people who feel it would be bad for their image not to go to church, so they go there. But in all fairness, it was just one visit, and I didn't feel much more affinity for the idea of church then than I do now. And I have heard really good things about their youth program. But yeah, Neshoba is supposed to be pretty cool. There's always First Congo, too, if you really want a liberal-minded church. And believe it or not, I hear good things about Prescott Baptist (kicked out of the SBC for having a female pastor, and I hear she's very good).

Jessica · Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 5:33 am Post subject:

Scout · Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 8:06 am Post subject:

Is United CoC the same as the CoC that doesn't use musical instruments in church?

prescott · Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 1:11 pm Post subject:

See, I just make it easy on myself and don't go to *any* church. Laughing

kathyjm · Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 1:37 pm Post subject:

Oh gosh...I just recently studied Luke and we did go over a part where it's implied that those who didn't have the opportunity to know Jesus are not judged as harshly as those who shun him....so I would imagine that God does have mercy on those who are in non christian countries and are raised by their parents who were raised by their parents and so on so onbelieve something different.

I know this part isn't biblical but I choose to believe that it's all one God...he's just different in different countries if that's what others need in their culture. If you look at the different bibles and stories from a mythological perpsective...all the stories are VERY similar!

ShadesofBlue · Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 3:22 pm Post subject:

I guess I think that God speaks to you in a way that you can hear. Some people read the Bible literally, others take a more metaphorical, poetic view. I was one who was raised to believe that only those who when faced with God or Christ went on to reject him would go to Hell. When I was reading Genesis last summer after reading the book The Red Tent I was a bit horrified. There was just so much anger and wrath from the God I had been raised to believe was gentle. It really did seem in some ways so similar to mythological tales. I still have a tough time wrapping my mind around it all, but I was interested in the story of Jacob and Esau.

Scout · Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 3:43 pm Post subject:

I did the same thing after reading The Red Tent. I also only use the Oxford Annotated Bible because it has tons of notes on when and where each bit of the text actually came from, what parts were likely to have been changed and when, and contextual reasons and symbolism from the time of the writing to show why certain symbolic things were put into the text. It's really fascinating and totally different from the way i was raised with the King James version lol.

But yeah, like Kathy I was taught even in a very fundie baptist church that if someone has not reached the "age of accountability," (can be different for each person), or lives in another culture and has never been exposed to "the truth" or had the chance to "be saved," then that's not their fault and they will still go to heaven. Only people like me get to go to hell. Wink

ShadesofBlue · Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 6:56 am Post subject:

I'm going to look for that version of the Bible. I'm not affiliated with any religion, but I've been interested in learning about the foundations of Christianity and I'm very curious about the split in the Middle East and the religious basis for it. It seems so interesting one religion where the members are chosen and the other religion where the beginning started when something was taken away and how both of the stories are entertwined.

MainstreamMom · Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 7:23 am Post subject:

I just tune out the stuff I don't believe from my religion.