The Imperfect Community

julymom · Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 8:24 pm Post subject: Kindergarten woes

I wavered on sending Cooper to K, as he was a late July baby but he really wanted to go, and they tested him and said he was ready. Against my better judgement I let him go. Now, I'm kind of regretting it. He loves school. Loves it and learns so much, but he's the youngest in his class and really far behind. His teacher called tonight (mid-term reports come out on Friday and she called to discuss it) and it's not good. He's very good in class, listens (mostly), pays attention (mostly) and is really excited by everything they do. He can do really advanced math (he's been adding and subtracting in his head since he was 2), but has all kinds of trouble with reading and letter sounds. He knows his letters and can pick them out with no trouble at HOME (but not at school) but has a hard time with letter sounds, especially the vowels. She suggested getting him evaluated for speech therapy. He has a really advanced vocabulary (she commented on how many large words he knows and how well he uses them), but says things rather strangely. When he's counting, he always leaves out 14, because to him it sounds exactly the same as 13 (I have a hard time distinguishing one from another when I gt him to say them).

Another HUGE problem is that he just doesn't want to do stuff. I'll ask him to do stuff I know he knows and he'll just shrug and say "I don't know." I'l prod him some more and he'll eventually do it. He did this at school for a long time until I clued his teacher in on it and now she prods him and he'll do it. He's just being lazy. It drives me nuts. What do I do?????

At this point, if things don't improve, it looks like he might have to repeat K, which to me is not that big of a deal considering I was prepared for him to start next year anyway, but if he has to stay back and all his friends move on to 1st he'll be heartbroken. Any suggestions?

peglegginmegan · Slightly Flawed Joined: 10 Jun 2007 Posts: 27 Location: wv

I'm sorry, I know how frustrating things like this are. I would have him evaluated for the speech issue, the school system should have someone they can refer you to, or have their own person. Then I would follow their recommendations and continue working with him. You guys still have the spring, and my understanding is that you could ask the school to evaluate him again in the summer to see if he is ready for 1st grade then. He sounds like a smart kid who's a quick learner, and he probably won't have any trouble (except the prodding). I'm actually surprised the teacher didn't just try that on her own, a lot of kids that age need a little extra "encouragement". I know my brother always did...he wanted to do what he was good at and familiar with, and I think that's pretty common. As for having to stay behind his friends, I would think that he would make new ones pretty quickly if he repeated k! It seems like that age would be too early for the whole embarassment about repeating a grade, if you phrase the explanation well (if it even comes to that). Keep us updated on how things are going....

Jessica · Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 12:13 pm Post subject:

I don't believe in holding a child back for social reasons, unless it is having a severely negative impact on Cooper.

If he is smart -- so what if he's missing a number here and there, then he will grow into and mature into the level of his peers. He's not a disruption to class, so I think the teacher is over-reacting.

If I had listened to Holden's K teacher, he would be a year behind. He has always struggled with academics and this year, he's getting all A's and B's. Some kids just mature at a different rate.

He's definitely smart enough to be in K, so why hold him back?

If he needs some extra services, then take advantage of those and see how it goes.

julymom · Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 1:24 pm Post subject:

Jessica, it's not for social reasons. She says he's great in class most of the time, though he occassionally has trouble paying attention (he's 5 though, so to me that's not a big deal). It's more academic.

He is smart. He's incrdibly smart in math, which dh and I both suck at so I think that's kind of interesting. The problem is that he can't recognize letter sounds, especially the vowels, which makes reading difficult. He wants to read so badly, but really really struggles to put sounds together. We've been working on the short "i" sound (as in sick) and if he uses a word, like "it" he says it correctly, but when I say "Tell me what sound 'i' makes" he always, always, always says the short "a" sound. I'll correct him and say the short "i" sound, and he looks at me like I'm nuts and says "That's what I said." We have to go over it time after time to get him to say it correctly. It's so frustrating for him and me.

Things like not being able to tie their shoes don't bother me, because it's not like he's going to be in HS and ask me to tie his shoes. Smile

I think that's a silly requirement anyway. Knowing letter sounds and being able to correctly identify them is a problem though.

I called the school district and of course they're out of funds for parochial school students and cannot take on more students, but they are still going to evaluate him. I called Tricare (the military insurance) and they do cover private speech therapy. Hurray! They want the school district to go ahead and eval him and then he'll go through another eval with his ped, and then if they think he needs it they'll set him up with private therapy.

The irony is that Cooper never, ever, ever shuts the hell up. Ever. He talks in his sleep. He was a late talker and his ped was concerned, but one morning he woke up and jsut started talking in complete sentences. It was so weird. We've always noticed that he says things differently, but at first attributed it to the fact that all the TV shows he saw when he was little were British. He talked with what sounded like a British accent for a very long time, but we've been back in America long enough that he should have lost all that by now. The sound distinctions are our real concern.

Hopefully we can get him some therapy and move on. I don't particularly want him to do K again, but I'd rather have him repeat K, than struggle and possible repeat a later grade, which I think would be far more traumatic than repeating K. KWIM?

Petulant Pixie · Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 1:41 pm Post subject:

I have a story like Jess's. Katie struggled a little in kindergarten, she wanted to learn to read, but her learning style was different and she just wasn't getting it. And, she was a perfectionist, so she'd take FOREVER on the little work sheets, writing them, erasing them, writing them again, and she missed out on all the little social times because she was working on her sheets.

First grade was no fun, she was "behind" in reading. Things were sent home in all caps, underlined saying, "SHE SHOULD HAVE LEARNED THIS IN KINDERGARTEN!" The teacher recommended that she get tested for ADHD, then at the mid-year conference, it didn't look like she was going to pass 1st grade because she was so far behind in reading.

Summer between 1st and 2nd grade, she caught up and actually excelled ahead. She entered 2nd grade at the reading level they expect when kids are leaving second grade. We also changed schools, from the catholic school in K and 1 to the public school. But, Katie's standardized test scores show her curve way above that of the district, the state and the nation, so that's telling the truth. Somewhere in there between 1st and 2nd grade, it clicked and she soared ahead. Personally, I feel that the super-high structure in that classroom was constricting Katie and she had too much pressure on her. But, really, if he's smart, then he will catch up in the next couple of years. There is a big spectrum of abilities at that age and some kids (I know, I SAW them) just sit there totally flabbergasted by the whole kindergarten experience, and they don't do SHIT for the whole year. That's what kindergarten is supposed to be, an introduction to the school environment. He'll catch up academically as the years roll on. You could be holding him back for three years before he really grasps the reading thing, and then he'll sail ahead and be a 7 year-old kindergartner reading at a 4th grade level, then what the hell are you gonna do?

As for the speech, I don't know. I see kids around here who are in "speech therapy" for years and years and I still can't understand a word they say. Katie used to pronounce her "r's" wrong, like a new england accent. Saying "caw" instead of "car"--actually, "car" sounded more like "cow". And "rabbit" like "wabbit" We worked on it when she was four (during the summer), having her talk like a pirate. We had her over-accentuate that "arrr" sound. It sounded ridiculous, of course, to be saying "c-arrrrr" and "errrr-abbit" but she finally broke the habit of mispronunciation and for her it was a habit, because she physically could make that "r" sound, there was no physical reason why not. But, I tell you I see kids Alex's age (totally not exaggerating) who still say "cow" and "wabbit" and they've been going to speech since they were in pre-school. I don't know if it's that speech therapy is just ineffectual or if they have some physical issue where they can't say things right. But, if he has no physical issues, then I'd just work with his speech RELENTLESSLY at home. JMO.

Jessica · Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 1:44 pm Post subject:

Well, in that case JM, I still don't think you should hold him back or should have held him back.

Again, not that my son's situation applies to everyone, but he was soooooo behind in Reading and comprehension and in 1st grade, the public school put him in a take out program, where kids that needed more reading/writing/comprehension skilled went to a small group (3 kids) program with a Reading Specialist.

He was in the program for a year, I never asked for it, they recognized this problem the school just put him in the program.

Now, he reads incessantly. He's a book worm who can't get enough of reading.

I guess what I'm trying to say, is that I was in your shoes and have no regrets in moving my son forward. Some people told me not to and I even second guessed myself on numerous occassions, but he came into his own, both academically and socially.

Jessica · Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 1:46 pm Post subject:

mammaX3_MOD · Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 3:15 pm Post subject:

JM, I wouldn't worry too much. Your situation sounds so similar to Jess's Pixie's and even mine. Kelly seemed to lag behind in Kindergarten. He went from a preschool class size of 12 to a Kindergarten class size of 24. It was sooo overwhelming for him that his lack of social skills were getting in the way of his academic skills. His progress reports all came back "below expected level". Reading was difficult for him.
Now that he's in 1st grade, he's in a reading program like Jess was describing. His reading skills are improving and his confidence level is soaring.

My friend's son is in K, too, and she says he has a hard time identifying letter sounds. He's great in the other areas.
I personally can't believe they're having the kids reading at such a young age. Not that I'm trying to "dumb our kids down", but I remember that we didn't learn to read until 1st grade, and it started out with phonics. Last year in K, they had my son reading mini books with pictures supporting the writing. The teacher never told us how to help the kids at home with the reading homework. So when my son would stare at the picture and then vaguely tell me what the words said, I would get so frustrated. I said "This is not 'tell me what the pictures say homework'. This is read the WORDS homework", and I'd cover the pics, so now he was frustrated. When I finally told the teacher about our struggles, she said that right now they're just learning that words go left to right and that pictures help us read. "Next year they'll do phonics work."
My suggestion is to stick with it. Play letter games at home as much as you can, and if your insurance will cover it, get him speech therapy. But I'd wait until May to decide to hold him back if he's really that far behind.

MainstreamMom · Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 4:24 pm Post subject:

Hey JM! Just wanted to pop in and let you know that J is in K and cooper sounds exactly right on where he's supposed to be.

I don't think K (especially in the first few months) should be teaching reading quite yet, of course if a child is ready then great.

We have J's teacher conference tonight actually so it will be interesting to see what they say. He turned 6 in Sept (missed the cutoff last year) so he is one of the oldest.

I would have him evaluated for speech and see what his teacher says in the spring. They can learn/grow so much between now and then.

Annie and Kenna should have some good insight as they both teach and have kids this age.

M will be the youngest in her K class next year (she's an august babe) but I'm not going to hold her back. I know a ton of people who do though so you won't be alone.

Scout · Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 7:58 am Post subject:

I agree with everyone else--I would not focus too much on the few problems he's having, especially when he's so strong in other areas. I'd do the speech evaluation, probably, and see what they say, but I wouldn't hold him back unless things deteriorate drastically by the spring.

ExCareerGal · Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 7:16 pm Post subject:

I agree with all of the advice you have been given. I do NOT agree with holding him back for the following reasons.

1. His skills are totally developmentally on target for K according to your description.
2. If he has no real delays he will catch up just fine, probably later this year or next.
3. If he does have real delays you will find them out sooner by not holding him back and can get him some good intervention.
4. The number 1 variable to making a future drop-out is to be over-age in high school.
5. It is more likely a teaching problem- not a learning problem so you definitely do not want him with the same teacher again!

There is a lot more I could write on each of the reasons above but I do not want to bore you. I would have him tested for speech and language. The number 1 cause of reading delays is speech/language delays. I hope this helps!

Janna

julymom · Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 10:19 pm Post subject:

You know I'm kind of stumped. His progress report came home yesterday and she wrote down all the letters he couldn't indentify and the sounds he couldnt recognize. This morning we sat down and played a little game. I put out flash cards of all the letters they've worked on this year and would ask him to find a particular letter, cap or lower case, or find the letter than makes a certain sound and he got every one of them right. Every freaking one! Of course I gave him a mini-marshmallow (a HUGE treat) for every one that he got right, so he had some serious incentive. At home we're up to sight word list 8, but at school he hasn't made it past list 3. What?!?
He's kind of hesitant when he tells me stuff, but I know he knows it, so I encourage him and he'll tell me, but at school he just won't. I know he doesn't like to be wrong, so maybe he's just afraid of being wrong at school? He doesn't seem to have a confidence problem otherwise. He'll talk to anyone about anything for extended periods of time (do not get him going on about dinosaurs unless you want an hour long lecture on the t-rex and iguanadons and how they lived and died), but he's very hesitant when it comes to stuff like this and would rather say he doesn't know than be wrong. What do I do?

Petulant Pixie · Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 8:29 am Post subject:

mammaX3_MOD · Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 11:41 am Post subject:

Pixie, I hands-down totally agree with you. My son's teacher told me that she believes he knows his material, but on his report card she gave him a minus in the "demonstrates learned knowlege" section.
Everything you described about the school setting is what is making things hard for Kelly at school. He's so shy and stand-offish. The teacher told me that he doesn't pay attention at cirlcle time, and I told her
"Well, yeah, because he's constantly thinking about who's sitting too close to him, which girl is touching another girl's hair, and which kid keeps coughing in his face."
It is very ovewhelming for him, and just like Julymom, I see him perform just fine at home.....

Trey'sMom · Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 4:21 pm Post subject:

So how's Cooper doing? I remember waaaaaaaaaaay back in the day you and I had both talked about worries with these boys and when to put them in and if they'd be behind and all that good stuff. They're smart kids, I know this. Cool

Cooper has ALWAYS been smart. It's all this school bullshit that scares us.

I think that if speech therapy is an option and you think it will be beneficial, then go for the gold. But unless the teacher specifically says to hold him back...I don't know. It just really sounds like he's only have minor issues in one area. He's so damn smart. I can't say that enough. You know this.

Trey has done great, but he has his "areas of concern". One of them is "blends sounds to read words". Whatever. I think he'd rather say, "I don't know" than give the wrong answer, too. He gets very antsy and nervous and then upset when he's doing something and he makes a mistake...he can thank me for passing that on to him.

BTW, is it just me or do those bullshit sight words suck ASS? Trey went to a private pre-k and they did the good old-fashioned phonics and he did awesome. I swear these stupid sight words have thrown him for a loop. Apparently I am in the minority with that opinion since the state of FL seems to think they're fantastic.

I'm sure he's doing great and he will excel. Did I mention that he's one smart little boy?? Wink