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ExCareerGal
Seen Better Days
Joined: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 416
Location: Memphis, TN
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Petulant Pixie
Queen of Imperfection
Joined: 22 Apr 2002
Posts: 4140
Location: flyover country
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 Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 10:50 am Post subject: |
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That was interesting! This part really got me:
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| There are only two camps of people: the spiritualists and the religious. The spiritualists are those who do not necessarily subscribe to the dogma and doctrine of a particular religion, although sometimes they do. They believe part of the dogma of a particular faith, but find the rest of that faith to be bunk. There are many spiritualists who call themselves Christians who would never enforce their particular belief system on anyone else. Those people are spiritualists at heart, not religious. |
That is what I am. I do practice parts of Christianity, I consider myself Christian because I believe that Jesus is the son of God. But I also believe that God has divided himself (herself, itself) up in a way to reach the greatest number of people, so Jesus is the way that my people became exposed to God, but that doesn't negate the numerous other ways--the other organized religions and the pagan belief system. I, personally, feel they're all equal. I do subscribe to the superstitions of holy relics, but I subscribe to ALL of them. A crucifix is as holy as a star of david or a buddah to me. A priest is as holy as a rabbi or any other holy person. I've known my system is unique and I've been told I can't really be a christian with my belief system (certainly not a "good" catholic), but oh well, it's what I believe. |
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Anthromomma
Seen Better Days
Joined: 05 Jun 2004
Posts: 493
Location: Gateway to the West
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| Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 1:05 pm Post subject: |
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Frankly, I wasn't impressed with the essay. The author does not appear to be at all well informed about the topic at hand, and he provides no references or data to back up his generalizations and assertions. That's not to say that I don't think we could have an interesting, intelligent discussion on this topic, I just can't get very far with this particular essay.
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| Atheism, at its core, has the belief that there is no god or gods. |
Not exactly. There are, in essence, two basic forms of atheism. What is called 'strong' atheism is similar to the author's characterization: the belief that there is no god or gods. There is also something termed 'weak' atheism, which is more personal: the lack of belief in any god. The latter doesn't really hold up to his particular criticisms of atheism, I don't think. In addition, I don't know where this is coming from other than his own mind:
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| The fact remains that all but a handful of atheists would have to say that the possibility of a god exists, however remote. |
and as an atheist (a 'weak' one) who knows quite a few more, I don't find this to be true in my experience at all. His abrupt dismissal of agnosticism is pretty lame, too, IMO.
In addition, he's making some pretty sweeping conclusions based on what appears to be a pretty narrow knowledge base of world religions. Not all religions have a Hell concept or something similar, and many religions are not evangelical or even especially welcoming to converts. Knowledge of christianity does not equal knowledge of all organized religion. |
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prescott
Community Techie
Joined: 21 Apr 2002
Posts: 3347
Location: Outside your window
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| Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 2:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Now, atheists assert that this is not a belief system, as such, and certainly it is not a belief system in the way that religions have a belief system, but it is a belief and not a provable fact. |
This is infuriating. No matter how much he says it, ATHEISM IS NOT A BELIEF. Choosing not to believe something IS NOT A BELIEF. The only reason there are even "atheists" to begin with is somewhere along the line someone wanted a handy label for people that don't believe in god. Every person on Earth is born an atheist, to become a Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Sun Worshipper, etc., you have to be taught it. I didn't "choose" to become an atheist, I chose not to believe in any religious mythology -- really, is the difference that indiscernible?
"Atheists shouting back that you can not prove a negative... does [not do their] side any good" is asinine -- so is the author suggesting that in some instances we actually *can* prove a negative? But perhaps he's right in that responding in a simplistic manner does not properly advance the debate. Which is why I tend to further point people to Bertrand Russell's Celestial Teapot. |
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Petulant Pixie
Queen of Imperfection
Joined: 22 Apr 2002
Posts: 4140
Location: flyover country
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| Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 3:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Hmmmm, I don't know, Scott. I understand what you're saying, but I think I disagree. Saying that you don't believe in religious mythology, that you're a blank and that it isn't filled in with "belief" in anything, but the absence of belief. I dunno. The religious mythology is just a representation of a bigger picture--*some* life giving eternal being or beings. So, saying that you don't believe in the religious mythology is saying you don't believe in the "eternal being" and I think that IS a belief. I get what you're saying though in the "I believe in not that" isn't the same as saying "I believe in that" but I do think it's belief all the same, since there is always an alternative to the "not that". You have to believe in something. How do you believe the world started? What do you believe our purpose is here? Or do you believe we have no purpose? See? There are beliefs, they're just the assumed beliefs in the void of not believing in an "eternal being". |
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Jessica
Queen of Imperfection
Joined: 20 Apr 2002
Posts: 4808
Location: Chi-town
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| Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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But, even in the beginning, "man" desired to know their purpose for being, even before formal religion was introduced. Isn't it human nature to ask these questions: Why? How? Who?
Isn't atheism apathy or refusal towards the question, "why"? |
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prescott
Community Techie
Joined: 21 Apr 2002
Posts: 3347
Location: Outside your window
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| Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Petulant Pixie wrote: |
| How do you believe the world started? What do you believe our purpose is here? Or do you believe we have no purpose? See? There are beliefs, they're just the assumed beliefs in the void of not believing in an "eternal being". |
I don't have "beliefs" in the origins of life, I have opinions on theories that are grounded in our scientific knowledge of biology, physics, etc., just as one doesn't say they "believe" in the theory of gravity. But I will concede somewhat that it is in large part a matter of semantics.
| Jessica wrote: |
| Isn't atheism apathy or refusal towards the question, "why"? |
One could also argue that blindly following indoctrination is laziness and apathy. And I'm generally much more interested in answering the "how" before the "why". |
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Petulant Pixie
Queen of Imperfection
Joined: 22 Apr 2002
Posts: 4140
Location: flyover country
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| Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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| I don't have "beliefs" in the origins of life, I have opinions on theories that are grounded in our scientific knowledge of biology, physics, etc., just as one doesn't say they "believe" in the theory of gravity. |
But there are different theories grounded in science, so which one do you "buy into" more? There are opinions about the safety of fluoride. One camp (with science backing) says that fluoride in the right amounts is beneficial, and the other camp (with science backing) says that it's poison in any amount. You choose one or the other to believe. Which is why some places have flouridated water and some don't. Even in science, theories are changed and disproven and in between one being the mainstream popular theory and another taking its place, there is a gray area where people (educated, scientific people) have to look at both sides and choose one to believe in.
As far as your assertation that we're all born athiests and that we're taught a belief system, well that's a belief in itself. Maybe we're all born linked to God and some of use choose to turn our backs as we age? I know, you're going to toss that "proving a negative" back at me. The thing is, nobody can prove anything, there is only belief--belief in one thing or the absence of it, which is, by default, the belief in something else.
The celestial teapot analogy is interesting. It's definately against organized religion, which I can understand. All the issues I've had with my religion have come from trying to find other people to share a religious experience with in a specific group (ie churches). On my own, I'm fine.
I choose to teach my kids MY form of spirituality because it's given me joy and comfort through my life. I realize more and more that my brand of religion and practice of it is unique, so I'm not going to defend organized religion anymore, because the defenses don't even apply to me. But, for ME, I don't see it as brainwashing, or misleading. They're free to choose whatever (if any) beliefs (or not) that they want when they get older. But, if I didn't share with them something that has been meaningful to me, then I feel I would be negligent. The best analogy I can see for that is choosing to have children or not. As a parent, I find such joy and wonder in having children that it's unimaginable to me that someone would choose NOT to. I hear their reasons, and I respect them, and I don't think less of people who don't want children, it's just a choice that I cannot relate to. For me, my spirituality and faith is the same. I can hear the reasons why people reject the idea of a god, and I respect those people and their choice and I don't judge, but I cannot relate to it. My kids may grow up to be childless athiests, but since both kids and my faith have brought joy into my life, I kind of hope they don't. If they do, then that's their choice, but it will be hard for me to comprehend. As a parent, maybe you can understand that analogy without offense? |
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mammaX3_MOD
Moderator
Joined: 04 Aug 2006
Posts: 630
Location: western WA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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I didn't really get this guy at all. First he says he's an agnostic:
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| Ah, the agnostics! This group takes the weakest way out in that they believe that there may be a god or gods, but they're just not sure. Mostly, these are people, like me, who have rejected organized religion, but still want the comfort that the belief in a god or gods can offer. |
then he ends his article by saying that agnosticism doesn't make sense:
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| In reality there is no such thing as an atheist or an agnostic. There are only two camps of people: the spiritualists and the religious. |
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| In the final analysis, atheism and agnosticism don't make any sense. |
Well which is it dude?! Are you an agnostic or not? It seems to me the only thing that doesn't make sense is this article! It sounds like just the ramblings of a guy with an over-sized ego and a keyboard!
I find myself in an odd situation. I was Catholic and then our church rejected me at 9 years old. They caught wind that my dad and my sis converted to the Mormon religion, and they told me to my face, "Well, why should we waste our time educating you if you're just going to convert down the road anyway?" It left me crushed. I was 3 months away from first Communion.
My dad asked me if I wanted to join the Mormon church, too and that it was my decision. I thought it would hurt his feelings if I said no, so I did.
However, once I was old enough to decide things for myself, I realized that yeah, there's faith, sometimes you just gotta have faith in religion, and then there's "Mormon Faith". And there were just some things I just couldn't be sold on in that religion.
So now what? My heart says Catholic. Papers say Mormon. I feel drawn to Catholicism, yet whenever I get close enough I get disgusted with the Catholic church.
I raise my kids that there is a God. Jesus loves you. Lead a good life, and you'll get to Heaven. But you don't have to attend church every Sunday for God to take care. It's working for us.
And P.S. That whole thing that the new Pope just stated recently about how "Hmm. Maybe un-baptized babies don't get stuck in Limbo/Pergatory", irritated the shit out of me. Let me say I never believed that crap anyway. Why would God reject a beautiful baby, just because mom and dad never got around to baptizing him? But why, is it that just because a man (born into this world just like you and I) says something, it's suddenly law? I pray to God, not the freakin' Pope. |
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prescott
Community Techie
Joined: 21 Apr 2002
Posts: 3347
Location: Outside your window
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| Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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| I can hear the reasons why people reject the idea of a god, and I respect those people and their choice and I don't judge, but I cannot relate to it. My kids may grow up to be childless athiests, but since both kids and my faith have brought joy into my life, I kind of hope they don't. If they do, then that's their choice, but it will be hard for me to comprehend. As a parent, maybe you can understand that analogy without offense? |
No offense at all -- in fact, it's very apt because I feel the same way. I can't relate to people that choose to follow spirituality, but I as well don't form my overall opinion of them as a person on if they do or don't as long as their faith doesn't encroach on my personal space or rights. And I can't comprehend how people can believe in something without any empirical evidence.
I think about this a lot -- probably as much or more than most think about their religion -- so it's not a mere dismissal of faith. Because there was no "turning point" where I rejected the idea of a higher power (once I reached the point to maturely reason on such matters, that is), I often wonder if the capability to believe or not in such things is hardwired into our individual DNA.... it does boggle the mind... I think I need to go watch some mindless television to unwind!  |
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Petulant Pixie
Queen of Imperfection
Joined: 22 Apr 2002
Posts: 4140
Location: flyover country
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| Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 8:12 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, I think about it a lot. I used to think about it more when I was religion-hopping. I get into a circular thought process--
I believe in a God. I do. It scares me to think there is no God and it's all random and that when we die, we just decompose and that's the permanent end of us. I don't like that, so I choose to believe in something bigger partly out of denial, which is weak.
But..I TRULY believe in evil. I belive in a satan, an atichrist, a demonic thing that embodies all badness.
Kind of...then I wonder if this God I believe in is good AND bad. That he really did create us in his image, which means he's a faulty dumbass just like the rest of us, and our flaws are just because he couldn't do any better. The only word we have that he is all good is from him, and well, he could have lied. If he's not all good then he can lie, why not?
But, then that scares me, because I really WANT to believe in an all good, all loving, all knowing God. So I do. I don't understand suffering, I don't understand horrors inflicted upon children and other innocents. I don't understand why some of us have food, heat, shelter, medicine and others have nothing. The Bible offers some suggestions on why, and what we're supposed to do and why it isn't done (God never promised there would be no suffering, just that our souls would be saved; we're supposed to be the "hands of God" helping each other; we're selfish assholes basically because of original sin, so it is our fault and it's not our fault). But, I just choose to turn off logic and have faith. It can't do my any harm! I don't spread my religion, I don't discriminate, I teach my kids what I feel is the good foundation of any moral living (but my way is via Jesus), so I don't feel I'm harming anyone else either.
But, that's what faith is, it's belief without evidence to believe, and sometimes it's comforting. When things are out of control, it's comforting to believe that there is someone in charge, to let go of everything to. |
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prescott
Community Techie
Joined: 21 Apr 2002
Posts: 3347
Location: Outside your window
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| Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 8:25 pm Post subject: |
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| But, that's what faith is, it's belief without evidence to believe, and sometimes it's comforting. When things are out of control, it's comforting to believe that there is someone in charge, to let go of everything to. |
That's the crux of it right there. People like you that internalize it, keep it personal, find a happiness and guidance in your life because of it, then by all means knock your socks off, I have no problem with that at all. What kind of Libertarian would I be to deny your personal beliefs?  I guess when I read polls that say Americans would rather elect a radical Muslim as president over an atheist I get a bit uptight, lol. |
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Petulant Pixie
Queen of Imperfection
Joined: 22 Apr 2002
Posts: 4140
Location: flyover country
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| Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 7:06 am Post subject: |
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Yeah, well, I can't help what most Americans would do, I'm finding I just relate to PEOPLE less and less these days, regardless of religious practice or politics or whatever.
But....speaking of Muslims, I have a question (which probably belongs on another board). When I was in AZ the beginning of July, my mom had the news on (I never watch the news at home, I read interesting stories on my CNN page) and there was some big hullaballoo in England about the Muslims. The Muslims interviewed were going on and on about making Muslim a main religion in England, and the English people interviewed gave their thoughts about it. But, am I wrong, or does England NOT have a separation of church and state??? Isn't the Queen of England still the head of the Church of England (the Anlgican/Episcopalian church)???? Isn't it all still entwined? Isn't that kind of why we left there to begin with? So, are they just giving the Muslims their talk time out of courtesty since nothing really will ever come of it? Or are they too afraid of trouble that they'll ignore their own laws regarding religion? I honestly don't know, so I'm asking. |
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ExCareerGal
Seen Better Days
Joined: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 416
Location: Memphis, TN
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| Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 6:04 pm Post subject: |
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I knew you all would add thoughtful comments! The part I liked about the article is the identification that there are many people (myself included) that do not feel comfortable with the terms atheist or agnostic as a description of what I believe. I still belive that there are things we do not understand and cannot understand as humans. Religion is a human attempt to answer unanswerable questions. But that does not mean that there is no G-d or that I am unsure. I am very sure that there is something more out there and no one religion has all the details correct! So even though I agree that his characterizations of atheism and agnostics are slanted and simplistic I kind of like his idea of the spiritualist. Thanks for giving me more to consider!
Janna
Last edited by ExCareerGal on Wed Aug 15, 2007 8:18 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Scout
Queen of Imperfection
Joined: 20 Dec 2002
Posts: 3390
Location: home of the blues
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| Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 7:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Jessica wrote: |
But, even in the beginning, "man" desired to know their purpose for being, even before formal religion was introduced. Isn't it human nature to ask these questions: Why? How? Who?
Isn't atheism apathy or refusal towards the question, "why"? |
Nope. Atheism is having the balls to accept that there is no answer to those questions. There is no reason why we're here. There is no way anyone can ever know exactly how we got here, though science has some pretty sturdy ideas. There is no reason whatsoever to believe there is a "who" who brought us here. We're born, we live, and we die. It sucks to have to die, and to have to know all along that we will die, that everyone we love will die, and that ultimately the things we care about might not mean shit in the bigger picture.
And really, I can accept that because I know that there is, of course, life after death--it's just not my life after my death. Things that I do matter because they affect other people who are alive right now, and they may very will affect the lives of people who will live after I'm gone. That's enough. Personally I feel damn lucky to have been born during such an easy time to live. Not many human beings have lived in a time and place filled with this much comfort and ease and plenty. I think we're trying our hardest to fuck it all up, and I find it very believable that our entire way of life may vanish during my lifetime, but even if that happens I think I've been very fortunate and the joy I've experienced in my life is enough to make me think life is worth living just for its own sake. |
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