The Imperfect Community

[TreeMom]

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/21/us/21spank.html

Sorry to do a drive by. Wanted to hear some intelligent thoughts on this. Will be back in later this week when life isn't crazy


Kelly

[DietCokeHead]

LMAO about this bill. It will never pass.

Sorry, I know that's not the intelligent comment you are looking for but that's all I've got.

[Jessica]

I was going to blog about this, but I waited too long.

I think it's a further erosion of our rights and I think it's totally scary. Much scarier than spanking itself.

I know some people would love it if our government were like that of a communist state, where the state controlled every aspect of our lives, but that is so fucking un-American.

People need to stand up against this kind of invasions of privacy. The government only need get involved in questions of abuse, not judicially used parenting methods. The next ban by this movement will be infant formula, it's already been taken up by a Senator. <shudder>

[Scout]

I don't see how a law protecting babies from getting hit is in any way like a bill to outlaw formula. I see no problem with it. I think children need to be protected, and I don't really care if some people think it violates a right they do not have to hit their toddler.

[Jessica]

[Petulant Pixie]

Yeah, I don't agree with it either. I'm not in favor of spanking. I *have* spanked, but I don't agree with it as a go-to discipline method. But, I also am in full support of parents being in control of their child-rearing methods, except for in cases of abuse.

I also think there are so many cases of actual neglect and abuse that are going un-checked that putting this much effort into the spanking thing is ridiculous.

Aside from charging parents with a crime, what else is being done to give parents effective discipline tools? Are ALL parents going to be given free positive parenting classes? Are parents going to be offered support groups where they can brainstorm on specific behavioral issues and learn different techniques to handle these issues? Are Supernanny and Keith Ablow going to be available for housecalls or to talk parents through situations via a 24 hour hotline? Is the government going to pay for that? The idea of not spanking goes a lot further than simply not spanking. The kid's behavior still needs to be re-directed somehow and parents who use spanking as thier regular tool do so because they don't know what else to do. So, what IS to be done about that?

I'd rather see all of the above done first and then come back to this issue a few years down the road and see if spanking is still happening. Then address it.

[Jessica]

[snuffles]

I stand firmly in your corner Jessica! Good for you!

[mammaX3_MOD]

[Petulant Pixie]

No, spanking in itself is not abusive. But, it isn't great parenting either. Spankers use spanking when either they don't know what other tools to use or they're too lazy to use other tools or they're angry. Spanking can *always* be replaced by some other disciplinary tool.

That said, as I've said, I have spanked. I can go on and on justifying why I *chose* to spank in specific situations, but that's really beside the point.

It is true that parents who use spanking--most of them, not ALL, but most of them--use spanking as their knee-jerk disciplinary tool, which means they spank for everything. Also, it is true that spankings increase in number and intensity over time, so when a parent starts out with 1 or 2 swats for something, it can lead to 5 or 6 swats for something real small in a real short period of time. There have been tons of studies done on spanking and the pros and cons of it. Those are two absolute truths, and those two thing can *lead* to abuse. Hitting more frequently and harder and for many many issues can lead to a generally violent uprbinging, which really can be abusive.

So, I would totally advocate funding for positive parenting classes and support groups and hotlines with behaviorists to answer calls and give disciplinary advice. I bet with that kind of support, then the occurrance of spanking would go way down and there wouldn't need to be any laws discouraging it.

The irony of this of course, is that spanking is punishment. One of the reasons it isn't an effective disciplinary tool is that it works only because the spankee is afraid of the spanker. Spanking (in most cases) teaches nothing, it only enforces discipline with the "right by might" rule. Charging people with a crime for spanking rather than teaching them other skills is doing exactly the same thing. It isn't teaching them anything, it's simply using a "right by might" mentality as well.

[Petulant Pixie]

OK, if I'm going to participate in this discussion, then I could really do without the left vs right bullshit and the cheering sections. The "yay you" stuff is really juvenile and irritating. If you have something to contribute, then do so, but the rah-rah anti-liberal stuff is a serious turn off.

[Jessica]

[Petulant Pixie]

I don't think we're disagreeing on this either, which is why the whole anti-liberal thing is so distasteful and sadly, that's what's getting the cheers, not any real discussion about the idea of outlawing spanking.

I totally don't see this as a liberal/conservative thing anyway.

[TreeMom]

Hmm...My formerly Liberal-turned-more-conservative every day husband and me with my unfortunate Libertarian-phase turned one eyebrow short of a socialist don't spank and have always thought hitting a child under three constitutes if not abuse, something very akin to it. We have spanned about every side of right and left between the two of us. I can't imagine this is a political issue aside from the fact that its a proposed bill. What you define as abuse or something akin to it isn't political.

Now, do I think that spanking is good parenting? Nope I do not. But I often resort to things I think are not-good-parenting as well. I think it has some negative effect on kids, but not abuse.

However I can't ever see hitting a child under 3 as anything but so very bad. I think the proposed sentences are appropriate.

And Jessica - While I appreciate that I am not a parent to your kid or vice versa I also think that a right of a child supersedes made up rights of parents. I wish more adults would have been willing to strip my parents of some rights.

I also agree I don't think the bill will pass.

Kelly

[Jessica]