The Imperfect Community

Anthromomma · Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 10:34 am Post subject: On death and dying

Seamus has been asking a lot of questions about my mom and dh's dad, both of whom are deceased, lately. We try to be honest, but age appropriate in answering questions (with all things, not just this). He's very into science and nature, and we focus on the cycle of life, that dying is just part of that circle, etc.

Well. Yesterday afternoon, I got the "Am I going to die?" question. We had a long talk, and I tried to reinforce everything about which we had talked previously. The conversation ended at his insistence, and the last thing he said to me was that he was going to always eat healthy foods and get lots of sleep and exercise so that he wouldn't ever die. Confused

He brought it up again several times last night (and he hasnt' eaten anything but spinach, carrots and Greek yogurt since our talk). We've tried to gently correct him, but he's clinging to this idea pretty fiercely. Do I push with this? Should I just let him be?

I'm afraid that even though he's able to figure this out intellectually, he's not actually emotionally mature enough to understand it (he's four), and I don't know what to do about it. Sad

I know there are some athiests/agnostics on board, and I'm particularly hoping for advice from that quarter, although any and all would be welcome.

Erika

Petulant Pixie · Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 11:12 am Post subject:

I'm a firm believer in the idea that kids get what they can handle, so if he's really resisting the idea that he's going to die, I'd just let it go. I'd just drop the subject and in time (couple of days or so) he'll likely get off his total health food kick and return to his normal routine. He may remind you now and again why he's eating how he is, and I'd just say, "Yup, I know." and leave it at that, not encouraging any further talk right now. I'd wait it out until he brings it up again, then.

If not, if he continues to go on with this without your direction in it, then he may be struggling more with it than he's letting on. But, I'd be surprised. I just bet he moves on in a few days if you drop the subject.

MainstreamMom · Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 12:55 pm Post subject:

Well I'm not sure if you are religious and believe in Heaven but I tell my son (just turned 5) that when people die they meet their loved ones in heaven and someday we'll join them. It's a huge concept for him to understand and I admit, I have a hard time finding the right words.

On a related note, he has recently started asking "HOW???" (rather adamantly) his uncle Timmy died (my brother). I have not answered the question as I don't know what to say. He committed suicide by shooting himself in the head. How in the world do I go there with a a five year old? I don't want to lie but I don't know how to honestly tell him. He won't let up on the questions either. I think I said something like "he had an accident" and left it at that but it still felt wrong to tell him that.........sigh.

He's also adamant about knowing exactly how he got out of my tummy.......he keeps asking if doctor opened up my belly button and pulled me out. I guess I should tell him that he came from me and where but I don't know he'd grasp it......what do you tell you five year olds about that? LOL sorry to derail the topic........

Anthromomma · Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 1:43 pm Post subject:

My first instinct was to leave him alone to come to terms with this, but it didn't 'feel' like the right thing to do, you know?

MM, Seamus is big into the 'how,' too. My mom had breast cancer and my father in law was an alcoholic who died of cirrhosis, and explaining those haven't been easy, but I can't imagine trying to explain suicide. I don't know what I'd do in that situation.

As far as babies go, is he just asking how babies are born? We just went through this since H was born in September. My motto here is 'answer the question that is asked, and nothing more.' They (S, and my 2 1/2 year old) wanted to know how the baby was going to get out, so I gave kind of a brief run down of the mechanics-- the baby was in a part of my body called my uterus, and when she was ready to be born, the muscles in my uterus would push her down and out through my vagina. That seemed to be all they wanted, and it didn't lead into any questions about how the baby got there in the first place, which surprised me. I wasn't looking forward to that part of the conversation.

Erika

Petulant Pixie · Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 3:58 pm Post subject:

Well, of course you need to follow your instinct, but there is just something that sits wrong with ME with the idea of trying to get a child to accept his own mortality. I KNOW it's not like this, and forgive me the imagry, but the scene that pops into my head is a little boy with his hands over his ears, going LA LA LA LA LA over top his mom shouting, "No, really you're going to DIE, you have to accept it, you're going to DIE!".

Like I said, I know that's far from the reality of it, but, sorry, it's just the image I get Embarassed

So, with that in my head, I'd leave it alone.

As far as babies--Alex was 4 when Katie was born. We had a book called "How we grow" or something like that. It's a flip book where you can flip the mom's belly and see the baby inside at different stages. It goes beyond that, too, to losing teeth, graying hair and old age. But, in it, it does talk about the "birth canal" and I explained it's a special place on a woman, near her butt (since that was the information he had, that babies came out of mom's butts), also called a vagina, and that is where most babies exit their mother's wombs. But, then I had to go on and explain how he was born and how Katie was born, and he was cool with it all.

Katie was 6 when Liz was born and she wasn't satisfied with all that. She then wanted to know how the baby got there. I took it step by step until finally, because of her relentless questioning (over the course of weeks), I was explaining intercourse to her. She was fine with it. Alex, 10 at the time, STILL hadn't inquired about that stuff! So, again, I think that kids understand what they're ready for and the rest just sails over their heads.

Anthromomma · Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 4:14 pm Post subject:

Scout · Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 9:14 pm Post subject:

Yeah, four year olds are really morbid at times. I think for a lot of kids, that is the age when they put 2 and 2 together and figure out that everyone dies, or at least that everyone could die, including themselves.

One night when Calvin was 4, I was lying down with him at bedtime after reading books. I thought he was asleep, and he sort of cried out like he was having a bad dream. I said something like "it's ok, you just had a bad dream," but he was actually awake. He rolled over and said to me "I was imagining that I was dead, and all I could see was black dark." It came totally out of left field, too. No one we knew had died or anything. I guess he had seen or heard something about burial. I said something like "Honey, when you die, you don't know you are being buried. The part of you that thinks and sees stuff and has feelings is what people call your spirit, and when you die, your spirit leaves your body. That's what it means when someone dies--their spirit has left their body."
of course, he asked me what happens to your spirit, where does it go. I said no one really knows for sure, but different people believe different things. Some people believe that it's just kind of like resting (I was really trying to avoid a sleep image because he has always been afraid of sleep and hated it), some people believe that the person's spirit gets to watch over all the people they loved, some believe you get to be reborn in a new baby and have a whole new life, some people believe you go to heaven," etc. That seemed to calm him down for the moment. We had pretty much the same conversation several times off and on for a long while after that, then gradually he passed out of that phase (and back into something like it this past year, but he's doing better again).Oh, and I think I said some things about how he didn't have to worry about that for a long, long time, because he was going to live to be an old man, and we were all going to live for a lot more years, and we just don't need to worry about dying right now.

As far as babies, all of my kids know the basic "the mom pushes the baby out of a hole not the one the pee comes out of." Laughing

But Calvin learned the whole deal this last winter when I was pg with Genevieve, because he would not stop asking. I think I posted about that whole mortifying scenario. Embarassed

mammaX3_MOD · Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 11:24 am Post subject:

I think, just explain to your son what he can handle NOW. You can always increase the details later as he gets older. As he gets older and matures he'll be able to handle more. 15 year olds aren't scarred for thinking for the longest time that there was a Santa. Eventually they got old enough to realize there is no Santa.
If your son thinks that eating healthy will prevent him from dying, then let it be. At least he's eating right. He'll eventually realize that there are other things we can die from and you can gently explain about that later.

Petulant Pixie · Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 11:38 am Post subject:

You know, Kristy, now that you mention it, I do remember Katie and Alex being almost obsessed with death and dying around 3-5ish. I remember them saying totally morbid stuff, but in a real matter-of-fact manner and I remember being really creeped out by it with Alex, but then when Katie went through it, it didn't seem as weird because I'd been through it with Alex. Wow, how could I have forgotten that? Just mental blocking? See, by the time Liz is doing this shit, it'll be like my first all over again, since there's the 6 year gap!

Anthromomma · Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 12:10 pm Post subject:

I'm glad to hear that this is a common thing for this age. I was beginning to feel like I'm warping him, since I don't really shield the kids from what I study, and S has really taken an interest.

Anyway, to update, he seems to be working through this in his head, although his imaginitive play has gotten a little bizarre this week (stranger than usual, even Laughing

) . We've had several brief talks in the past few days, and he definitely seems less stressed about the whole idea. Now we just have to hammer out the concept of divorce, since two of my three brothers are going through them right now.

Erika