The Imperfect Community

[Jessica]

One of my google alert emails came in this week and it was a Chicago Tribune columnist/blogger who wrote about the new study that shows a [seemingly] well respected that breastfeeding does not, in and of itself, raise a person's IQ. This is getting a ton of press.

A Chicago Tribune blogger wrote about it, agreed with it, and then pretty much went onto say that it didn't matter anyway (and who cares) because breastfeeding is so good for you anyway, who cares? Okay, fair enough...I disagree...but fine...

The comments that ensued though, were the same, EXACT comments that I read 8 - 10 years ago! Nothing has changed. There has been no progress in the discussion.

There were women claiming their kids were formula fed and they were fine, and then breastfeeders saying that kids have lived off of horrible conditions and basically inadequate foods and starved for years and still survive and that doesn't mean it's okay.

(BTW, I would link it, but the actual article is not the point I'm making.)

Then, I go into my whole tirade about how there should be no shame in ffing and that this constant motivation to give it a foolish stigmata and impose government sanctions and barriers on it should be of great concern to our freedom and liberties, and that we shouldn't try guilt mothers into feeling they have made the wrong or dangerous choice, right?

Well, THEN this lactation consulatant says, (and I'm not even sure she's telling the truth), that she couldn't bf and then decided to dedicate her life to helping others bf and that it's a shame that women who can't or don't bf, won't do the same -- dedicate their lives to helping woman bf. (I'm so sure!)

THEN, she spews that bullshit about how you can't make somebody feel guilty for something they have no guilt about in the first place. I of course, bring up the carrot example, about how, if your kid likes carrots and then you get berrated about it, with someone saying it has tons of nitrates and is a choking hazard, and enough people tell you the same thing (even if it's totally untrue), you start to second guess yourself. It's psychological warfare. A group of people have made someone feel guilty, if deep down, they know the information isn't accurate.

Okay, so finally my point!

You all know how I feel about this issue, but looking at it at much more objectively, and so many years later -- I mean, I talk about in my writing, but just reading that, it made me think...why does it pleasure these women to manipulate and try to make people feel bad? I mean, I don't feel bad, but the point, is that many of these chicks are sincerely trying. Does that make them feel big, powerful, smarter? I don't get it.

It's almost as if it's become the thing to do (bf) so that you can look down on others and be automatically accepted by a certain group, no matter how decent of a person you are. Aren't these traits, ones that try to manipulate and bully, ones that you would want to sheild or warn your kids about? What is the point? And where do they get these scripts from? Because they all say the same, exact thing and the kicker is, most of it is inaccurate!

I mean, really, it's not a question that can be answered, but for discussion's sake, why do women care so much about whether or not a mom decides to formula feed? If that is truly what she wants to do or is doing, why is it so earth-shattering? I will never, never, never, never understand it. I guess I just don't get why people think they have a right to interfere with a mother's acceptable choices? It doesn't seem right or fair and it's causing some weird psychological aftermath too. It actually reminds me of brainwashing.

I'm not talking about any of the breastfeeding mamas here, because I know none of you are like that and don't/haven't said (or at least from what I remember), the manipulative talking points that I'm talking about here.

[Renee]

I agree, and agree, and agree. The breastfeeding nazi brigade drive me up the wall - I think though that this business of women beating other women up (if it's not breastfeeding then its staying at home with the kids or not - insert your issue here) is that we are not out of the oppression woods yet.

Typically people who are in a position of lower class/status/whatever will interalise their anger, and argue with each other. Western women are long past being a position of lower class, but we can't just let each other be - old habits are hard to break. Just a thought...

[Petulant Pixie]

I honestly think that a lot of it comes from defensiveness. After YEARS on that ---->other board and listening to ffeeders being called DEFENSIVE whenever they contradicted an alleged breastfeeding benefit (no matter how inaccurate or unproven--"breastfeeding reduces acne in future generations!"), I've come to realize that a LOT of that comes from their own knee-jerk defensiveness. We know that there are weirdos out there who see breastfeeding as dirty or obscene. We know that there are people who make a point to embarrass a breastfeeding mom and try to make HER feel bad. We know that since breastfeeding has made a resurgence that women are having to battle family members (are you sure he's eating enough???) and other obstacles. So, it only stands to reason that they might (as a group of individuals) feel persecuted from the start and just take the defensive.

The irony of course is that they're in the majority now. They have science (real statistics and wishful-thinking stats) in their favor, but some of them STILL just can't get over it and join the I'm OK/You're OK brigade of child-rearing. They need (NEED! That's an important thing!) to remind themselves and everyone else that what they're doing is right and what anyone else is doing is wrong. It's just insecurity at its most transparent, Jess. Don't be angry with these people, pity them. If that's really the kind of mothers that they are, then their kids are going to suffer from their self-esteem issues and that's really sad.

[Scout]

Well shit, I guess I get to be the token breastfeeder here.

First of all, can we leave Hitler and a whole political party of genocidal maniacs out of this discussion, please? I find that offensive.

I don't know. IME, it seems like a lot of women who breastfeed or are part of the "breastfeeding culture" have true, deep-seated beliefs about the benefits of breastfeeding. And really, for them, I think it's more about the baby, and the mother's needs/feelings are secondary, as they feel they should be. IOW, I don't think it's so much that they want to make women feel bad, as it is that they truly believe formula is harmful to babies. We know that in most cases, it's not really hurting babies, (but at the same time, we also know that there are missing elements in formula as compared to breastmilk). I think sometimes in their zeal to support this wonderful thing, they forget about the realities of motherhood and that mothers are women who are all facing a variety of issues.

Anyway, I personally did not choose to bf because I thought it would raise my kids' IQs. I do feel like we have seen some benefits in terms of my kids not having the asthma that I had severely as a child, or many ear infections, or any allergies, but at the same time I know there's a chance that the same would have been true had I ff. I did choose bf because it seemed (and has been) easier for me in many ways almost all the time, and I admit that in the few instances where it would have been easier to give a bottle of formula here and there (in place of pumping or when I've struggled to pump enough for when I'm working, etc), I have gone to relatively great lengths to avoid that, and I have never given any of my kids any formula as a result of that. I do feel proud of that, even if it's irrational in some people's view, maybe just because it's the one thing I set out to do as a mother that I have actually been able to live up to 100%, KWIM? I have my own reasons for not wanting to give formula, but at the same time I don't think having ebf makes me a better mother or whatever.

I guess I have a hard time feeling like all these evil women are out there hell-bent on making other mothers feel bad because I just don't see it. Where I live most people do not bf, and women who do are far more likely to encounter criticism and flack than women who ff. I also do not consider the internet to be an accurate guage of the reality of the situation. And I think often women who come across that way online are reacting to criticism and the non or even anti-bf culture they encounter IRL. I know there are bound to be some who are just hard-core bitches, but that's true of any given sample of people. I don't see those women as representative of any breastfeeding cult(ure) any more than I see people who say bf is gross and incestuous or starving the baby or whatever as being representative of any FF culture.

Breastfeeding my kids has been an awesome experience for me. Some of my most cherished memories of having babies will always be times when I was curled up with a nursling in bed all snuggly and warm and sleepy. I wish more women could have that experience just because it has been so positive for me on so many levels. I consider myself a bf advocate because I want women who want to bf to be able to do it. Too many times, that doesn't happen for reasons that could have been avoided, and it makes me furious that HCPs do not do a better job of supporting nursing mothers who want to nurse and have trouble. I do not see it as the role of an advocate to say anything to women who choose not to bf. It's all about information and support, IMO.

[Petulant Pixie]

I need to say, Kristy, that my opinion of the defensive-type statements I was talking about were NOT coming from you (or anyone sane). Where I live I am the ONLY formula feeder I have met, so I don't think that this type of ffeeding-bashing is typical of breastfeeders AT ALL.

I'm sure there are a lot of wonderful things about breastfeeding, aside from the health benefits. I really don't mean to knock breastfeeding at all. I wish I could have done it, I wish it hadn't been soooo motherfucking HARD for me that I felt the benefits of quitting (for me and for the babies) outweighed what I saw as the benefits to continuing.

But, there are the odd comments. Not with Liz, but of course with Alex (the LC in the hospital, even!) and with Katie. And, I'm sure that breastfeeders get comments, too. It's shitty either way. But, from my perspective a lot of the negative comments to breastfeeders are from mis-information, plain ignorance and weirdos, which, of course, reduces their credibility. But, the negative comments to formula feeders come, overwhelmingly, from other mothers--from one's own peer group--and that, I think, is what makes it sting so much.

[Anthromomma]

I'm typing one handed, so this is the short version: ITA w/ Scout.

PP:

[Petulant Pixie]

[Anthromomma]

PP, I have more to say, but I just realized that it's Friday. I've got a stack of homework in front of me and then I'll be gone for most of the weekend. I'll come back to this when I can if the thread's not dead by then.

Erika

[DietCokeHead]

I mean, really, it's not a question that can be answered, but for discussion's sake, why do women care so much about whether or not a mom decides to formula feed?

Hell if I know!! Seriously, I don't get it at all. I understand people supporting breastfeeding but not to the extreme point where they are posting "formula is poison" articles on bulletin boards. I also think that the pure nastiness of some mothers towards others who do ANYTHING different really comes out on the internet when IRL it would not.

[Scout]

PP, I do see what you are saying. It is shitty both ways to have people who just insist on saying something about whatever you have chosen to do.

As for why do these women care how you feed your baby, again I think that's coming from a well-intentioned (as in "the road to hell is paved with...") concern for all babies, and for whatever reason, these women truly believe that babies are harmed, or at least losing out on something to which they are entitled, when they are not breastfed. Maybe they think that demonizing formula is an effective way to get more women to breastfeed? I think a lot of times women just aren't thinking about how the things they say affect women who are already ff. They are not really thinking of you at all--they are thinking about the women who are in a position still to choose.

As for why the argument has not changed in 9 years, I think it has a lot to do with the constant turnover of "new mothers" in terms of that one year that is even affected by this debate. By the time we get a little distance and perspective on that first year, we've left the realm of debate and discussion on this topic. So you constantly have new "converts," KWIM? And they are very aware of the constant influx of new mothers making the feeding choice. Of course, if all that energy would be focused on providing real support, and reforming the problems in the health care arena that contribute to low bf rates, that would be much more effective.

[MainstreamMom]

The bottom line is those of use who FF by choice have fundamentally different views on infant feeding than those who BF at all costs

See I am one of those people who celebrate formula. I want to stand on my roof and scream to the world THANK GOD FOR FUCKING FORMULA! THANK GOD! I cannot even imagine life without it. We are so lucky to have a safe, AAP-approved alternative to breast milk. Is formula perfect? Of course not. Is formula the same as breast milk? Again no. But for me, and people like me, it’s not a competition. It is about the empowerment and freedom that comes with choosing formula. I think the energy and effort should be in making sure we always have a safe alternative to breast milk. I had some problems with formula in the past just as many moms have hurdles while BFing. Nevertheless, I still am pro-formula. It does not make me anti-breastfeeding but it is a fundamental difference in thinking than moms who want to BF. Just as a BFing mother will never be able to wrap her mind around the fact that I chose formula, I will never be able to wrap my brain around the BFing at all cost mentality.

I would not say anything to people IRL but I sure have thought in my mind “just give the baby a bottle of formula!” I do not think those of us on this board who have been around for a while are that way *to each other* but I think if we thought the other person was some random stranger on the net we might get a little more personal.

As always, JMHO!

[honeybee]

Having only read the OT and no replies yet (my small preggo brain is easily led astray and unfocused), I just want to comment on this:

[DietCokeHead]

OMG you said "asshat"!

[Jessica]

[supergirl]

LOL....Both the breastfeeding/formula feeding and the c-sections/natural birth debates fire me up, and I have no clue why I get so agitated with either. Usually, I don't even participate in debate (lurk only), because I get so pissed off that I can't even formulate thoughts that would make sense to others. I guess it all comes down to this....I don't understand why anyone has an opinion regarding my parental decisions. Nobody has a right to an opinion regarding my children. I brought them into this world, take care of them (financially and emotionally), and am ultimately responsible for their safety and well-being. None of my parental decisions (whether someone agrees or disagrees) have compromised the safety and well-being of my children. Unless a child is being neglected or mistreated in some way, I would not interfere, and I would expect society (in general) to mind their own business in the same manner. Another reason I don't participate in online debate...I hate stupid people! There are so many people parading their opinions around as fact or putting on this whole self-righteous, holier than thou act that I have a hard time attaching any credibility to people on the Internet. I'm not giving anyone online a prize for being the "best mother". I don't think she exists, and I'm satisfied that I'm doing the best I can for my children. That being said....anyone that's on the Internet 24/7 can't be doing such great things for their children, can they?!? LOL

Breastfeeding/Formula Feeding....

With Hunter, I tried for about two weeks to breastfeed, had no support/help, didn't really know what I was doing, and never could get him to latch on. The poor child was starving by the time I finally switching him to formula. Rather than celebrating the fact that he was now being fed, I beat myself up over the fact that I supposedly "failed as a mother". We had to switch from formula to formula....and five years later, this kid is still sick all of the time. He still has bad acid reflux, allergies, and asthma.

With Ethan, I was determined to make breastfeeding work. I had help and support at this point. Almost everyone that I know here in real life breastfeeds. I did it, and I hated every minute of it. He was latched on 24/7 and didn't gain any weight for the first four months of his life. I was really embarrassed that I couldn't figure out something that "should" happen so naturally. Everyone else seemed to nurse so easily...I really felt like an idiot over the whole thing. When I went back to work, I couldn't pump more than an ounce or two per day, so Ethan had to start drinking formula during the day. I made myself feel so badly for this, but really, this was the very best thing that could have happened for Ethan. He started to gain weight into a normal range, and his personality became so much better. He screamed and cried almost nonstop for the first four months of his life. Once he starting drinking formula and gaining weight, he became a very calm/happy baby. Still, I was determined to continue nursing every spare minute that I had at home. He really didn't enjoy it, and I didn't enjoy it either. Finally, I got preggo again, and I guess my milk dried up completely because he refused to nurse at all after about six months. He had reflux while he was nursing but hasn't had any since he started drinking some (and eventually all) formula. He's always had allergies and ear infections, regardless of how he was being fed, and I imagine that to be kind of a genetic thing passed on to both children from myself. Both of my kids were sick with the same things to the same extent at the same times....that's a pretty big coincidence considering they were fed in different ways. I'm not foolish enough to believe that Ethan is going to be "smarter" than Hunter because he was breastfed some. I think that's genetic too. As far as the other "benefits"....I don't think Ethan got any. Any die-hard breastfeeder will say that it's because he wasn't breastfed EXCLUSIVELY for the first six months...whatever..... I hate that argument too!

Bottom line....once I got used to the fact that I was formula feeding, I was much happier and interacted much more positively with my babies. When I was nursing, I was miserable and depressed. I would rather my children had a mentally stable parent than "exclusive breastmilk" for the first year of their life.

I still don't know what I want to do about this new baby. Part of me says that I need to give nursing a shot. Part of me says I'm just not cut out for it. I do know that most of my IRL "mommy friends" breastfeed, and I will probably be embarrassed to formula feed....which is a stupid reason to make myself miserable. We'll see.

I've said enough....not even going into the c-section/natural birth debate today.....