The Imperfect Community

[ExCareerGal]

My story is very similar to yours supergirl. I also tried to breastfeed both kids until it almost killed them and me (I hurt JC when he did not thrive for 2 months due to the inadequacy of my breast milk contents). If I was to have another one I pray I would be smart enough to just go with formula and be done with it but instead I would probably kill myself to try and breastfeed again. I think you need to do what you believe is best and too hell with everyone else. My problem is I do believe in breastfeeding, and really wanted to do it, but my body kept fucking up. I did breastfeed both of my kids for 6 months but only with formula supplementation did my kids literally not starve. Do what is best for you.

As for the topic- mommies love to believe that whatever choices they make on any topic is the right one but they agonize and stress over it. Some mommies who are insecure in their decisions feel a need to persuade other mommies to do the same as them so that they feel even more justification that they made the right choices. Other mommies who are secure in their decisions are truly just trying to educate other mommies. The fist types ar usually offensive, the second type are really quite cool regardless of their positions. That is my take on the situation!

Janna

[Petulant Pixie]

See, SG? That's the issue I have with the push to breastfeed, is that the "failure" rate seems so goddam high and people (mothers!) are being hurt by it.

Kristy--you said that you believe that the zealous breastfeeding advocates see this as an issue where the baby's need outweigh the mothers needs, and the need to ensure what's best for the baby is what's top on their minds. How their approach to that affects mothers is not their concern. I understand that. Boy, do, I, because it also seems to be the same line of reasoning that the anti-abortion camp has, doesn't it? I see real big similarities between the two, and ironically, the one group I KNOW you cannot relate to, yet the other you seem to sympathize with and forgive their approach. Am I right?

SG--I don't know if you know my story. I was unable to latch Alex at all. After two days of incessant screaming (and not a single latch!). I felt inadequate as a woman and I hated the time I spent holding my baby, since it was just him screaming and me feeling bad about myself for not being able to do this! I broke down and gave him a bottle. I had a horrible LC who shouted all sorts of nasty things at me when I did this and I felt just awful with guilt. I felt like I was poisoning him or something. But, then the prophecy just didn't come true--he wasn't sickly, weak, stupid and listless (I don't know WHY I ever believed he'd be "less" because he was formula fed, but that's the power of the breastfeeding movement--intelligent women put common sense aside and buy into it because it feeds on our worst fears!). Alex DID have ear infections starting at 5 months. They stopped when he was 18 months old and we moved from Cleveland to Texas, so I really think the climate was the big factor. He has hay fever now, too, but that's really it.

When pg with Katie, I started visiting BC and other boards for help. What I got was a complete turn-off on the whole breastfeeding thing. A LOT of the women at BC and other boards were just so agressively pushy about breastfeeding, it reminded me of the LC and I just really wasn't into it. I figured I'd make the decision when she was born. She was born with low blood sugar and needed *something* right away. I wasn't up for a battle at the breast, so I told them to give her a bottle. I had a wonderful, immediate bonding experience with Katie. It totally compensated for the horrible time I had with Alex the first two days. I just held and cuddled her and it was smooth sailing from the start. Katie didn't have any "formula related" issues at all. She got her first ear infection when she was 3 and we moved to Minnesota.

Liz, I tried again, and again no latch. I didn't try for as long as I did with Alex (at least continuously). I didn't have the physical support I needed. We don't have family here, so it was just Mike and me and three kids. I didn't have anyone to help hold Liz or anything while I rested and I knew from two previous babies that a Nuk and a bottle=a little bit of sleep. I just pysically could NOT keep having the nurse bring her to my breast for her to cry at it (just like Alex!) and not latch on all day that first day. I was weak, I broke down and felt bad about it because EVERYONE here breastfeeds. I was like some freak from another planet or something. After we got home from the hospital, I continued to try for a six weeks. Each feeding, I'd try to get her to latch. The most I got was a minute long latch on one side (I was so excited!), but she was writhing and kicking and grunting the whole minute, and I've seen babies nurse and they don't do that. I don't know why my babies won't latch, but they just won't. So, there. She has had three ear infections. One last January, one last February and one just a couple of weeks ago. I don't think that's too bad.

So, if you think you'll feel guilty for not trying, then go ahead. I'd probably try again if I had another.

[Jessica]

[Jessica]

[Scout]

I think that I am just an idealist and that I never want to think any "group" of women is just a bunch of mean bitches. I mean, I guess with the anti-abortion analogy, I see those people as really just hating women moreso than being concerned for babies, because if they love babies so much why don't they fucking do something for all the babies who are actually born into shitty circumstances instead of trying to just make sure more babies are born into shitty circumstances, KWIM? But I can see what you are saying. They think it's because they love babies so much, and maybe some over-zealous bf advocates think it's about the babies, too.

It's funny, and believe me I hate to tell y'all this story because it will just fuel your whole argument, but this kind of shit crops up with some of the more extreme Continuum Concept people about babywearing. I have seen threads on MDC about "Container-Free Parenting," where all these women pat themselves on the back for never letting their baby sit in any sort of "device." It's so stupid. They'll talk about these poor neglected babies in buckets that they see in restaurants and how they just look glazed over because they're so ignored, and I always have to say "Oh, well, if my baby is asleep I will carry her in the bucket so as not to disturb her, and I guess this means if you saw me you'd be feeling all sorry for my poor "bucket baby" when actually she's worn in a sling all the time" and stuff like that. SO yes, I know there are some people who just want to show how they are so great and wonderful and other people are not. I think, unfortunately, some people are just shitty like that, and in the world of parenting babies we are just forced into close quarters with some of them in a way that really makes their ass-hole-y-ness more apparent.

Jessica, I do understand that a lot of women don't have the same response to bfing that I have had. I'm not sure what is the "correct" way for me to respond to that. I get the feeling I'm not supposed to say anything like "I feel sorry for those mothers" or "it makes me sad for them," because that's insulting and of course no one likes to be pitied (well, some people do I guess). That is how I feel, but not in a "I pity you for being less of a woman/mother than I am" kind of way. It's because I can't imagine my mothering axperience without the bfing experience I've had--it's so integral to my experience of having and nurturing a baby, that the thought of having it not work seems so terrible to me. That has nothing to do with judging anyone. I don't see any mother as a "failure" if she loves and takes care of her children.

I have never really had any problems bfing so I can't say how far I would go, or would have gone with my first child when I had not done it already, to make it work. I wasn't that invested in the idea of nursing when I had Calvin, I just wanted to do it for sort of vague reasons.

Now, I can say that I think personality comes into play with some of the breastfeeding problems that come up a lot, and I think that's where the issue sometimes gets muddy and people get irritated with the other side. It's because it's about whole aspects of people's personality and life/world view, and people always argue about that stuff. For example, I think I'm well-suited to bf (as I know I have said here before) because I love to sit around and read or whatever, and I do not care if I need to be doing dishes or if the floor needs to be mopped; it doesn't bother me to sit and nurse the baby because I am just that way. Whereas some women can't stand that part of it, and feel like they need to be getting things done, or they just have that type of personality that can't stand to sit. Now, regardless of babies and feeding, when I meet someone with that personality type, they always seem unhappy to me and just make me nervous, because that is foreign to me and I can't see how anyone can stand to be like that, I would just go crazy if I were like that, and I'm sure they feel the same way about people like me. In that way, I think the feeding debate is really just underscoring a whole host of other issues that really exist outside of the realm of babies and motherhood. Those issues translate into all kinds of things, like motivation for parenting style choices (ie do you try to do what seems "natural," or do you care more about control or do you just tend to do whatever is the norm without thinking much about it? etc).

SG, I hope that with this baby you will feel comfortable doing whatever feels right to you. I know what you are saying about most of the Moms bfing in that group, and how it would feel awkward not to do it. But at the same time, IME it seems like for the most part they try to be respectful of everyone's choices even if they (we?) are maybe too eager to "help" when someone is struggling with bfing.

Janna, I'm sorry you also struggled with nursing but I have to say, there is no such thing as the contents of your milk being inadequate--there had to be supply issues or transferrance issues. It's pretty well scientifically established that even in a severely malnourished mother, the nutritional value of the milk will stay steady (at the mother's body's expense) except for a few things like amounts of DHA (higher in women who eat a lot of it in their diet, like in places where a lot of fresh fish is eaten). I so do not want to sound bitchy about that, or like it is even of any importance in terms of whether you "could have" breastfed longer, but this is a good example of the kind of misconception that is so frustrating to bf advocates, because so many people still just don't really understand how bf works. It's not the "fault" of the mothers, it's the fault of the healthcare establishment and just a lot of deeply-ingrained misinformation about bfing that was initiated, yes, by the formula industry.

[Petulant Pixie]

[Scout]

I don't think there's any realistic way to determine that. there are just so many variables, and by the time people grow old and die, that information is probably unavailable in a lot of cases.

There does seem to be evidence that bf babies are less likely to die before their first birthday, but the AAP statement is sort of ambiguous because it includes morbidity and mortality in the same stat. I think they need to clarify that and divide those. I want to be clear that I do believe there are health consequences for lack of breastfeeding. I think in most cases, for healthy, full-term infants in developed countries, the consequences are not life threatening, but IMO still can be significant enough to make them worth considering. Things like the likelihood of needing to be hospitalized for something like rotavirus, for example, which IME does bear out according to the stats.

I do realize, of course, that the vast majority of FF'd infants in this country are healthy and thriving and well-cared-for. And honestly, I think the vast majority of people in this country know that. I think, again, that the internet offers a very skewed view of this, because you get a lot of women seeking refuge and alliances against the crap they encounter IRL. And as we've established, sometimes they respond by taking the whole thing way too far.

[supergirl]

In my opinion, a lot of the other breastfeeding mommies that I have met and come into contact with have an attitude of superiority that pisses me off. I catch a lot of smart ass comments, etc. to others about how their children are so much better off, they have the better pediatricians, how much they've sacrificed to breastfeed, etc. There are also a lot of passive aggressive comments regarding the amount of help/support/background knowledge/etc. someone got in order to breastfeed and an underlying insinuation that maybe if "you tried harder" you would have succeeded. I think it makes people feel uncomfortable, and I don't think it's fair. I know I gave it my personal best, and that's really all I could expect from myself. I could probably tell you as much about breastfeeding as any lactation consultant or LaLeche League leader. I was just never able to put the knowledge to good use. I sacrificed plenty in order to nurse Ethan as long as I did....my time (24/7 for months), my mental health (taking meds that made me feel like shit in order to boost my supply). My pediatrician has not personally breastfed any children, but I'm pretty sure that doesn't compromise HIS medical abilities at all. I am a VERY private person. Despite this, I made many visits to lactation consultants and accepted help from others. All of these people told me that I was doing everything correctly....still doesn't make sense that my child was literally STARVING.

Despite all of this, I do believe in breastfeeding. I also believe in formula, but I feel as though everyone should give nursing a shot first. I think a lot of formula feeders would see that breastfeeding is a lot easier than they thought. I also think a lot more people would see how difficult breastfeeding CAN be for some people and maybe be a little more accepting of people choosing to formula feed subsequent children after having problems. I think everyone needs a bit of perspective and needs to tend to their own business before meddling in everyone else's. You never know someone else's situation before you walk a mile in their shoes.

Kristy~ I know you will debate this subject any time online and feel strongly in support of breastfeeding. IRL, though, I don't think you are judgemental at all, and I definitely don't feel like you lack compassion or respect for people who choose to formula feed. I feel much more comfortable with you than I do with any of my other IRL nursing mommy aquaintances. I do feel like you tried to help me with Ethan as well as you could, but I also understand that we didn't know each other that well at the time. I'm sure you helped as much as I would let you. I know I'm gonna need help again this time....you better be up at that hospital as soon as you find out that this baby's born to help me. Those lactation consultants suck! LOL

I'm still hopeful, though, that Hunter and Ethan were just clueless and this one's going to be a breastfeeding natural from the start. If not, though, I'm past the point of beating myself up over formula feeding my child. I just want my children to be happy and healthy, and I know that will happen regardless of the type of milk I supply them with as an infant.

[ExCareerGal]

I breastfed JC from 0 to 6 months exclusively. From 4-6 months he did not gain any weight, in fact lost some. I was told it was not due to inadequate supply amount since I pumped and could see how much he ate on many days. I was told by the doctors it was something wrong in what the contents were of my breastmilk and that I should supplement. since no tests were done on the contents of my breastmilk I cannot verify what they said but I certainly did not make it up.

I will concede that supply was an issue with me for both kids so I pumped and nursed nonstop for 6 months to make enough milk. When I supplemented my supply went down. I weighed Jc for 2 months to make sure he was gettign enough but after his 4 month visit where he was fine ( but in the 10%ile) I stopped weighing him on a regular basis. I will probably never forgive myself for not realizing he was not thriving.

You can blame me for giving misinformation but that is what happened to me and my son. I am still an advocate of BF but I do believe that even despite extroidinary efforts, (which I would call what I was doing with almost non stop pumping or feeding) it does not work for everyone. I still feel like a failure over it since I keep getting told if I really wanted it it would have worked. I really wanted it. Both times. And I failed. Both times.

[DietCokeHead]

Supergirl- The rude comments you received.. were those from people online or people you met or know? I think that some people online are 100x ruder than they would be if a person was sitting in the same room with them. They wouldnt have the nerve to be so bitchy in person. At least, I hope!

My mouth drops open when I hear about people getting rude comments from others in public or from "friends", about using formula. I just can't imagine someone trying to get into my business as I was buying a can of formula or sitting someplace feeding my baby. I know it does happen though, it just shocks me.

The reason it shocks me is that most people with infants DO use formula. Maybe not exclusively, but at least as a supplement for some period of time. I dont know where all these freaks that think they can tell people what to feed their babies are coming from!

I only know 2 people, one friend and one neighbor, who BF exclusively for one year. Everyone else I know either supplemented while working, or BF for a short amount of time, or not at all. So, that could explain why I havent received any comments.

Formula is widely used around here. (And I am not in some low socio-economic, undereducated area either, quite the opposite). Maybe if I lived in a more "granola" area I would have experienced the rudeness. If I didn't own a computer, I would have no idea that some people felt so strongly about BF at all costs and vilifying formula!

[Renee]

Hi there

Apologies if my reference to breastfeeding nazis offended - posted in a rush and without thinking. It's a reference to Seinfeld, where the Soup Nazi is really horrible to all his customers and won't give them any choices ... so my friends and I (one of whom is a lactation consultant) use it to refer to those who try to force breastfeeding on everybody, regardless of any other factors (and in a country - South Africa - with as high a rate of HIV and Aids as we have, there are a lot of factors to consider!) or what their personal choices might be.

And by way of introduction I had a terrible time establishing breastfeeding - three weeks of absolute hell with my baby not gaining weight - then added formula into the mix (I remember with gratitude the healing words of Jolene at our local clinic "even 50ml of breastmilk is better than nothing"), and Jack and me did 18 lovely months of breast and formula feeding till he weaned himself.

Guess that all I wanted to say - breastfeeding advocates often try to make it out to be a one-size-fits-all thing when it is a much more complex issue. Every mother should have the support she needs. to do what she wants to do ... only that way will she and her baby be happy.

Renee

edited to add a crucial comma, I'm a sub-editor, can't help myself

[Scout]

Janna, I did not mean to hurt your feelings or blame you at all. It sounds like maybe for some reason the babies were not able to drain the breast properly maybe? I know that doctors sometimes tell people the contents of their milk were deficient, but it has been proven repeatedly that this can not be true. They also tell people to give newborns cereal and all kinds of other wrong information. Again, I do not think it is your "fault" that breastfeeding didn't work for you, or that you are a failure AT ALL, but I do think your doctor told you something that is proven to be false. Don't be mad at me, please! I was not really commenting on your experience of breastfeeding, but on the fact that doctors constantly give out inaccurate information because they have almost zero training in breastfeeding or really any kind of feeding/nutrition.

Kenna, I'm sorry that people have said and done shit like that. I do know what you mean, and I can acknowledge that since I haven't been in the situation to feel like those comments were directed at me, it's probably hard for me to always recognize them and think about their intended effect. I'm glad that I did not come across that way and yes, if you want to try again with this baby, I will be there as soon as I know you've had him! I think with ethan the cmplications from the birth with bleeding/partially retained placenta, etc, really hurt your supply, and someone who knew the particulars of your birth should have told you that...grr.

Also, I wanted to say that every baby is different, and you could very easily have a completely different experience next time. Genevieve has not at all been a comfort or lingering nurser. She will latch on, get the job done, and have no interest whatsoever in nursing again for 2-4 hours depending on the time of day/night. I barely even feel like I'm nursing her because I can go out between feedings knowing she won't want to nurse, it's easy to plan outings without making sure I will be able to comfortably nurse her wherever we are, etc. And at least two of my kids have been the exact opposite. So you never know.

Renee, I know people commonly make that Nazi comparison. I just think we all have gotten a little too casual with using that term (not just about breastfeeding), and need to stop and think about using such a truly horrific historical reference so lightly. It's nothing personal toward you.

[ExCareerGal]

Scout- I am ok. It is just an emotional issue for me since I feel my insistance on exclusively BF actually hurt my son.

I am also a bit emotional theses days since my life is in complete turmoil. I am not mad at you. I know how you feel on this issue and still love you. You are not a boob nazi- your are a BF advocate!

Janna

[Anthromomma]

[Jessica]