The Imperfect Community

Petulant Pixie · Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 8:25 am Post subject: catholic brainwashing

Katie's not going to the catholic school, but Mike wants her to do her first communion this year. I looked in the faith formation booklet for the fall and the faith formation classes are $70! Now, back when Alex did it, it was $20. This school is raising the prices for everything.

I remember what a time committment it was with Alex and yup, for Katie, too, it's every wednesday night from 6:30-8, then there are the saturday "stations" for the first reconcillition, then the first reconcilliation mass and so on...plus these workbooks they have to do and ugh. So, anyway, I told him fine, you know, I don't even consider myself catholic anymore, don't take communion, don't even go to mass, so if he wants to enroll her in this and do it, he can.

But...his parents are going to come up for this first communion thing, and there's the first communion dress and all that and he got all pissy because I'm not helping to do this "for her", because I said I didn't even think I'd go to the first communion thing. It's not for her, it's for him, and it's doing something I don't really approve of, and I'll be left out of the whole thing. It's a celebration of something I don't approve of for myself, and I can't get all gung-ho about her doing it. I'd rather explore some of the other churches in the area (within half a mile we have a Presbyterian church, a Methodist church, an Episcopalian church, a Baptist church and of course, a Lutheran church). I'd rather look for a religion with a closer fit to what we believe and really find a better parish in general.

Am I the bad guy? I converted! I went to catholic church with him for like 3 years, then converted to catholicism because he doesn't see other churches as being "real". For him, catholicism is going to mass more often than not and taking communion that has been blessed by a bona fide vatican ordained priest. End. He doesn't do confession, he doesn't honor holy days, he forgets to fast and not eat meat on the specified days in lent. But, this is the only religion he'll consider. So, I converted, I taught flipping sunday school, I tried to do it, I really did, but I just have too many issues with the bigger catholic church and our parish and I just can't participate in it (in good faith) anymore.

He laughs and agrees that he's been brainwashed. That he does only want that from catholicism and that no other religion will do. I'm afraid he's passing on the brainwashing. Katie does want to do her first communion this year, well, duh, it's a frilly white dress and a big ceremony and a party with presents. What 7 year-old wouldn't? And in protestant religions, they don't do first communion until like 8th grade. They get them hooked in this church early and then fill them with guilt to carry them through.

What would you do? I have decided to not go to the prep stuff, I'll let Mike do that, but I will help her pick out her dress and I will go to the first communion and do the party. But, I told him I get to influence the kids in whatever way I see fit before they're confirmed. Part of that will involve visiting these other churches. I want the kids to make an informed decision before they commit fully to the brainwashing.

DietCokeHead · Queen of Imperfection Joined: 29 Apr 2002 Posts: 3805

Well, I am not really into being Catholic either at this point but I signed Jack and Molly up for the brainwashing of Sunday school starting this fall. I know I am not going to go out and find another church and I would like to give them some kind of religion to feel a part of. I figure if they ever want to branch out and explore other religions, I will support that. If they hate Sunday school, I wont make them go (its supposed to be lots of fun though so I dont see that happening). I just want them to have the options.

If I were you I would probably just let her make her first communion.

kathyjm · Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 12:44 pm Post subject:

It's just all he's known and that's how he was raised. My dh was the same way..I didn't get as far as converting but I did go to church with him for years, met with the priest, etc..but in the end, I'd be a LIAR if I converted to catoholicism because I do NOT agree with many of their core beliefs and practices. I'm very adverse to believing anything that is not biblical. Anyway, I finally got him to try a new church with me and he ended up liking it. We go to a non denonimational Bible study (CBS) and a lot of his buddies were at this church so I think that helped him be more open to trying it. We never went back to the catholic church after that. This church is presbyterian but it's HUGE so it has that same anonymous feel as the catholic church. And lets face it...sermons are much more entertaining at non catholic churches!! LOL! Also, this church is evangelical which is also very similar to a catholic church.

Anyway, I understand where you're coming from. And this doesn't mean your kids will be brainwashed...they have equal influence from you and your dh and when they're old enough, they'll decide which road they want to go down. It's probably hard for your dh to consider changing what he's known his whole life!

honeybee · Queen of Imperfection Joined: 20 Dec 2002 Posts: 3163

I don't understand all the pomp and circumstance involved in Catholisism. I actually find it frightening and sort of self riteous. dontknow

I just don't think having a healthy relationship with God has to be so confining, so regimented, so scripted. Confused

kathyjm · Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 5:04 pm Post subject:

"I just don't think having a healthy relationship with God has to be so confining, so regimented, so scripted"

Amen Sistah!

Scout · Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 11:17 am Post subject:

My dh is the same way, he never even goes to mass anymore (and believe me, I ain't encouraging him to Laughing

), but he calls the rest of it "those silly protestants." lol I think for him, the ritual of the church is familiar and comforting. He went to Catholic school until 10th grade and was an altar boy and everything, plus his mom's big Italian family is all Catholic, so it's tradition for him and that is more meaningful and important to him than the actual idea of worship I think. Or at least, that's my impression. We don't really talk about religion.

As for Katie, I don't know what I'd do. I can't really see myslf getting behind that whole thing, but then it hasn't been as much a part of our lives like it has for her.

MedeaNJ · Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 1:32 pm Post subject:

[quote="Petulant Pixie"]And in protestant religions, they don't do first communion until like 8th grade.[/quote]

Gee, I must go to a very liberal Episcopal church. Eucharist is given to anyone...even the kiddies if they choose. I can no longer recite into the Nicene Creed, because I do not believe in everything as written. As far as I am concerned I am lying when I recite.

I am still planning on checking out a Quaker meeting. I just need to find the time to get my sorry ass there.

Scout · Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 3:27 pm Post subject:

Baptists don't really do a first communion. You just start taking communion after you get "saved." They also practice closed communion, where you only take it where your membership is. But they only have communion a few times a year.

honeybee · Queen of Imperfection Joined: 20 Dec 2002 Posts: 3163

Scout · Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 8:10 pm Post subject:

I guess it varies a lot from church to church. My church growing up only did communion a few (seemingly random) times each year, and that seemed to be the norm for this area. Also, when we did it, the preacher would always read the verses about how whoever took communion but was not saved was damned, and this was why only members of the church could take communion there so we would not play a role in anyone's damnation. Maybe it's a Missionary Baptist thing? Our church was MB as opposed to Southern Baptist. dontknow

Petulant Pixie · Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 8:45 am Post subject:

The reason that the catholics make such a big deal about communion is becasue they believe in transubstantiation--that when blessed, the wafer and wine become in reality the body and blood of Christ. Therefore, in order to receive the body of Christ into your own body, yours has to be a pure and holy place--that's why you're supposed to make confession before having communion. And, that's why there's the big preparation for it when you are planning to do it the first time.

The episcopalians/anglicans broke off of the catholic church and kept most of the same beliefs and rituals (except obiously allowing for divorce and that the clergy can marry). Throughout time, a lot has changed down the line, but they still do, in their core, believe in transubstantiation, too. It isn't as necessary a belief as with the catholics, but it's enough that they can argue that they should be allowed to take communion in catholic churches.

When Luther broke away from the catholic church, he took along a lot of the beleifs and rituals, too. At its core, lutherans believe in a form of transubstantiation, too, but in their belief system, the wafer and wine, when blessed, turn into the body and blood of christ when digested. This was really ingenious of Luther to come up with, since it does away with the need to run into a burning building to rescue blessed eucharist, or the need for a minister to suck up dropped host off the floor so it doesn't get tainted, or the need for a separate plumbing line that goes from sink directly to underground so drops of blessed wine don't end up in the sewer (all of which catholic churches practice).

So....in those three churches, eucharist is still a biggie (in their core beliefs--you will find individual lutheran and episcopalian parishes that have wandered off from that--and some churches have their own house rules, where you have to be a member of that parish to take communion, etc.). But, in the other religions, communion isn't that big of a deal, since they see it as purely symbolic.

I really like the pomp and circumstance of the traditional liturgies. The traditional liturgies of the lutheran, episcopalian and catholic churches are really similar. I'm just not a big fan of the modern service, and that's probably from *my* upbringing, so I can definately respect the need to serve tradition. But, I think it's possible to find a church with a traditional liturgy and a liberal mindset.

Anthromomma · Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 8:53 am Post subject:

Petulant Pixie · Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 9:09 am Post subject:

I was raised in a church that said it was Missouri Synod, lol. I went to school there until 6th grade. I don't know how exactly they got away with that label, because the religious education I received there was verrrrrry liberal. But, they had a real traditional liturty, gorgeous old building with tons of stained glass, old wooden pews and a real pipe organ in the loft. I was spoiled.

MedeaNJ · Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 9:19 am Post subject:

[quote="Pixie"]The episcopalians/anglicans broke off of the catholic church and kept most of the same beliefs and rituals (except obiously allowing for divorce and that the clergy can marry). Throughout time, a lot has changed down the line, but they still do, in their core, believe in transubstantiation, too. It isn't as necessary a belief as with the catholics, but it's enough that they can argue that they should be allowed to take communion in catholic churches. [/quote]

Another reason I am thinking of breaking away, I will partake in the eucharist only in the sense that the celebration is a re-enactment of Christ's Last Supper (or more specifically, the Passover/Pesach). Funny, I converted 17 years ago and it was only in the last 4 or 5 years or so that the subject was transubtantiation was brought to light and I thought...WTF??

I like the thought of a faith with no creed, no eucharist, and no hierarchy. That you as a person of faith are responsible to live and work as 'Christ-like' (or good if you are not into the Christian belief) as possible.

Off to have some Thai food...Enjoying this thread very much.

Anthromomma · Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 10:18 am Post subject:

The church I was raised in was much the same way, PP. Our pastor was pretty much a hippie (very cool guy, and I should know-- I dated his son for three years). Terry and I were actually married in an LCMS church, and I spent a good year convincing him to convert. It was when T started to look into adult confirmation that we realized that what I was taught in confirmation in jr high was more my pastor's opinion than actual church doctrine.

Apparently, the Lutheran church schismed in the sixties over doctrinal differences, but a lot of students who were in seminary around that time just remained the affiliation of their 'home' churches, without considering that their beliefs didn't nessesarily jive with that of their new church. For whatever reason, the synod never really bothered to do anything about this, so individual churches were really shaped by those leading them. It's only been in the past 5-10 years that the church has been affirming and enforcing its doctrine and 'interpretation' of Luther's works within individual parishes, from what I understand. I think that this has a lot to do with the current political climate, and I think that it's wholly a political move on the part of the church, but I'm probably not the most objective judge.