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Interesting essay
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Petulant Pixie
Queen of Imperfection


Joined: 22 Apr 2002
Posts: 4140
Location: flyover country
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 4:57 pm    Post subject: Interesting essay Reply with quote
Quote:
Of course, "they" exist, "they" exist on BOTH sides. We've been over this and over this and over this and over this and over this. The only arguement is the unwillingness to admit that they exist on both sides and that are the lunatic fringe.


I guess I just don't see liberals using Christianity to promote their agendas, the way republicans do.

Quote:
"They say Jesus is "pro life," but he doesn't seem to have a problem with the death penalty. And he thinks stem cell research - something that would save lives - is no different from murdering babies. They say he's the embodiment of kindness, love, decency and compassion. But he hates gays, lesbians and Muslims. And he's not too crazy about Buddhists, Hindus and the rest. Jews? He can put up with them if he has to," as a generalization?? Who is "they" exactly?


Well, unless you're willing to lump our president, a guy you voted for twice, into the "lunatic fringe" zone, then I'd say it's NOT that fringe of an idea. I mean Dubya is pro-life, he's one of the biggest supporters of the death penalty that there's ever been, he's opposed to stem cell research, he denies rights to gays and lesbians on religious ground and he's a Bible thumper, using Christianity as the foundation for all the above.

As far as Italy being controlled by the Vatican, they have a pretty liberal abortion law! I've heard time and again, from folks who live in areas where church and state are not explicitly separated, how shocked they are to hear Christianty invoked so often by this administration for so many political policies. These are people from Italy, Ireland, France, and so on, who just find it suprising to hear from our government, since they don't hear it from their own.
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Scout
Queen of Imperfection


Joined: 20 Dec 2002
Posts: 3390
Location: home of the blues
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 5:29 pm    Post subject: Interesting essay Reply with quote
In her memoir of being pregnant as an unwed teen in Italy, Ariel Gore writes about going to Rome to get free prenatal care since she had no money or insurance, and they just wanted to give her an abortion and send her along. I had forgotten about that!

I don't know, honestly, I identified with what the guy was saying, I felt like he was fairly specific about who he was talking about, and I don't have the energy to really defend what he's saying because I just don't care all that much about it at the moment. Neutral
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Jessica
Queen of Imperfection


Joined: 20 Apr 2002
Posts: 4803
Location: Chi-town
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 6:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Interesting essay Reply with quote
Petulant Pixie wrote:
Quote:
Of course, "they" exist, "they" exist on BOTH sides. We've been over this and over this and over this and over this and over this. The only arguement is the unwillingness to admit that they exist on both sides and that are the lunatic fringe.


I guess I just don't see liberals using Christianity to promote their agendas, the way republicans do.


I'm talking about general ideological differences between fringe elements. I've read from several really lefty people on Kaz and IRL that fetal infancide should be legal and that a woman should have the right to get "rid" of her baby, even after he/she is born. There are environmentalist that kill people to save a tree. My mother is now having to bankrupt herself hiring lawyers because her neighbor has 3 huge, DEAD trees that are about to fall on my moms house. My mom has hired her own tree surgeons and experts to confirm what is obvious -- the trees will very soon fall on my moms house and there is undeniable danger that it could very well kill somebody (these are really tall trees, hundreds of years old). Well, this neighbor is from California and has told my mother and my moms lawyer and all the experts that she cares more about trees than people and she doesn't care if one of the trees kills somebody because she is not going to cut down a tree! There are people who believe that we deserved the 911 attacks because America is such an awful place, as if there is any justification for murdering babies on those planes. Rolling Eyes I can go on and on...

And, I don't think that most people who have these differing value sets are trying to make everyone "Christian" as in promoting an "agenda" as you stated. I think there are many overlapping societal values across the board. I don't think you have to be pushing a Christian agenda simply because you oppose abortion (for example). I know that there are people that do, but there are a lot of ideas out there. It's America for cryin' out loud. They're allowed to do that!

Petulant Pixie wrote:
Well, unless you're willing to lump our president, a guy you voted for twice, into the "lunatic fringe" zone, then I'd say it's NOT that fringe of an idea. I mean Dubya is pro-life, he's one of the biggest supporters of the death penalty that there's ever been, he's opposed to stem cell research, he denies rights to gays and lesbians on religious ground and he's a Bible thumper, using Christianity as the foundation for all the above.


No, I don't think he's is part of the lunatic fringe.
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Jessica
Queen of Imperfection


Joined: 20 Apr 2002
Posts: 4803
Location: Chi-town
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 6:20 pm    Post subject: Interesting essay Reply with quote
I need to stop getting baited here. I need to go on with my life, LOL.
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prescott
Community Techie


Joined: 21 Apr 2002
Posts: 3347
Location: Outside your window
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 7:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Interesting essay Reply with quote
Petulant Pixie wrote:
I guess I just don't see liberals using Christianity to promote their agendas, the way republicans do.


Except when it is convenient in regards to the death penalty or war. (didn't you just earlier in this thread pretty much disdain war because Jesus never OKed it?)

Quote:
I mean Dubya is pro-life, he's one of the biggest supporters of the death penalty that there's ever been, he's opposed to stem cell research, he denies rights to gays and lesbians on religious ground and he's a Bible thumper, using Christianity as the foundation for all the above.


Guess I missed where all that had moved beyond rhetoric -- are there bills up before congress re: these issues I don't know about?

Quote:
As far as Italy being controlled by the Vatican, they have a pretty liberal abortion law!


Right, and there's certainly no political motivation behind that. I'm sorry, I guess when I see a religious organization that is so powerful politically even Mussolini doesn't want to piss them off, I guess I get the wrong ideas......................
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Petulant Pixie
Queen of Imperfection


Joined: 22 Apr 2002
Posts: 4140
Location: flyover country
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 9:09 pm    Post subject: Interesting essay Reply with quote
Quote:
(didn't you just earlier in this thread pretty much disdain war because Jesus never OKed it?)


No, I didn't. I said that Jesus never condoned any killing. That's all I said, so whatever you read into it was a figment of your own imagination.
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prescott
Community Techie


Joined: 21 Apr 2002
Posts: 3347
Location: Outside your window
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 9:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Interesting essay Reply with quote
Petulant Pixie wrote:
But, Christianity beleives that NOBODY except God has the right to decide when to end a life. Period. The decision to fight wars and kill people for the betterment of all is man's idea. Nowhere in the Bible did Jesus ever condone the killing of a person, under any circumstances.


Right, I'm just imagining things.
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Petulant Pixie
Queen of Imperfection


Joined: 22 Apr 2002
Posts: 4140
Location: flyover country
PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 8:06 am    Post subject: Interesting essay Reply with quote
Oh, so you mean this part?

Quote:
The decision to fight wars and kill people for the betterment of all is man's idea.


I specifically said "fight wars", yes, but in the "kill people for the betterment of all", I meant things like the death penalty and abortion (since abortions are usually done for the "betterment" of the mother--and those new Freakanomic stats show a decline in crime since abortion has been legal, suggesting a correlation).

So, yeah, Scott, you were just really looking hard for something there. I was just stating the Biblical stance on it. I dare you to find anywhere in the Bible where Jesus says it's OK to kill someone. Yet people throughout the ages have killed in His name.
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Scout
Queen of Imperfection


Joined: 20 Dec 2002
Posts: 3390
Location: home of the blues
PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 4:22 pm    Post subject: Interesting essay Reply with quote
Prescott wrote:

Quote:
I mean Dubya is pro-life, he's one of the biggest supporters of the death penalty that there's ever been, he's opposed to stem cell research, he denies rights to gays and lesbians on religious ground and he's a Bible thumper, using Christianity as the foundation for all the above.


Guess I missed where all that had moved beyond rhetoric -- are there bills up before congress re: these issues I don't know about?


Well, let's be real here. he campaigned on the 700 Club (Bible thumping), he supports an ammendment banning gay marriage, he says he's opposed to stem cell research. Rhetoric of not is not the point, although in some areas we have clearly gone beyond rhetoric.
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new053105
Seen Better Days


Joined: 01 Mar 2003
Posts: 324
Location: Portland, OR
PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 11:04 pm    Post subject: Interesting essay Reply with quote
Kristy - I loved it!! Exactly how I feel!!
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