The Imperfect Community

[Scout]

Ok, the other night I was talking to one of my closest friends who lives in another part of the country now. She has two girls who are 5/6 and 3 right now. Background: My friend is from an extremely dysfunctional family that was very unstable and scary. Her dad was out of the picture, but for a few years he was married to a Jewish woman with no kids of her own who pushed him to get involved in my friend's life, have her out to where they lived (California), etc. They divorced, but my friend still calls this woman her step-mom (she no longer has any contact with her real mother), visits her, talks to her regularly, etc. The step mom has never had any children of her own, is a LCSW in California, and is a very secular Jew (not religious). She's also a crazy California super-knee-jerk liberal (she makes me look rightish of moderate, lol), and so is my friend's dad, and they both have a great deal of influence over her, but anyway...

OK, so I tell you this because during the conversation we had the other night, my friend was talking about her oldest asking questions about when they were going to go to temple. Apparently, a lot of her friends are Jewish, as they go to the Jewish community center, she takes swimming lessons there, etc. She goes to kind of a rough school and has had some social problems, so they try to provide her with a lot of friends and activities outside of school. So my friend started talking about how you have to pay to join a temple. And I was like "Well, but you don't have to join just to visit and take her so she can see what it's like." And she said that was true but for the girls to take Hebrew there they would need to join. My friend is not Jewish, nor is she religious in any way except for kind of new-agey, amorphous spiritualism. I was surprised and asked why they would need to take Hebrew (none of my Jewish friends ever even took Hebrew, KWIM?) So she basically said....drumroll...

that she is so afraid of her kids growing up to be Christians that she wants to raise them to be Jewish. I was like What are you talking about??!! I mean, obviously I have no issues with Judaism or anyone wanting to convert to Judaism, but that's not it. SHE is not going to convert, she just wants her kids to be Jewish. WTH?? Am I the only one who thinks this is insane?

Now, I love my friend, and I understand that she has some issues about fitting in and having strong foundations, because she never had those feelings of security in any way growing up. But still, to me this is taking it too far. And even worse, to me, is that for a while this summer, they tried out having her neice living with them, because she lives with my friend's crazy mother and the situation was just really bad. They have been raised Catholic by their grandmother (my friend sort of was, but not consistently. She did go to a catholic high school.), and when they were recently in foster care, the foster mother would not allow them to go to a Catholic church (which I think is just wrong--kids who have been uprooted should at least have a right to their own religion, IMO). So my friend took her to mass every Sunday, but refused to let her girls come when they asked. The oldest was really curious and begged to go, but she wouldn't let her. I said "Well, that's a good way to make sure she rushes out to become Catholic the first chance she gets. Why would you do that?" She said she doesn't want her kids exposed to Christianity and they have not ever heard anything about Jesus or any part of that story.

Now, I know there is no way for me, living here, to shield my kids from fundamentalism, so I am very open with Calvin (only one old enough to ask) about the stories that are central to Christianity. I've told him about the crucifixion and how that relates to easter, for example, as I mentioned in the other thread. He knows that people celebrate Jesus's birth on Christmas. I told him if he wanted to go to church, his Dad would be happy to take him. (He said "I don't wanna do THAT!" lol But I know that at some point he will.) I grew up aiding in the conversion of kids from non-religious families. No way am I going to make it a big mysterious, enticing taboo, KWIM? So I tried to present that perspective to her, while asking her about what was leading her to make these decisions. I feel that she is extremely controlling with her girls, and to me this is part of her (IMO) tragically mistaken belief that she will be able to control how they think and feel on all issues, and what kind of responsible citizens they will grow up to be. (She has the "giver" personality from that dumb quiz. She thinks her entire worth rests on what she does selflessly for others, and she believes it is her duty in life to make her girls into givers as well.) When I probed her about "Why Judaism, why not just take them to the Unitarian church or something if you want them to feel like part of a community?" she said that all the jewish people she has ever known are liberal and open minded and family oriented. I did not even feel like I could go there with her about why that is just wrong on so many levels. She went on about how her stepmom and all her friends just have this way about them, etc. I did point out that they are all Jewish women from New York who grew up within a Jewish-centered community forty years ago, and that really can't be replicated by some whitebread agnostics sending their kids to Hebrew lessons!

This has been really bothering me, and I just don't know how to talk to her about it. I know it's not my concern or my business. However, we have been really close for a long time and each know things about the other that *no one* else knows. A big part of our friendship is being very honest and open with each other. And believe me, she will not hesitate to tell me what I should do with my kids. It's not that I want to tell her how to raise her kids. I just think she needs to take a closer look at her reasons for doing this. Am I just wrong?

[DietCokeHead]

That is very strange on so many levels!

I think as long as you have given her your opinion on it once already it might be enough.. it's hard to get too involved and keep your friendship the same, KWIM?

[prescott]

My stance is that, as I mentioned in another thread, religion is such a personal belief I really think kids should be exposed to any information about it that they want, and they can make up their own minds. I know more about what's in the bible than many Christians I encounter. A fundie at my previous job was rather shocked by this, seemingly thinking atheists "deny God" simply out of hand.

Since, like it or not, religion does play a huge part in the global society, I hope my kids are inquisitive and come to their own conclusions regarding their beliefs, not just following along with what I tell them my views are. IMO, to take any other stance would be hypocritical.

I guess I have no real advice, but I think your friend is doing her kids a real disservice... I certainly don't envy your situation. I don't have any close friends like that where I can even relate...

[Sewingsiren]

[Jessica]

[ExCareerGal]

This is not as strange to me. My kids go to the Jewish community center and there are plenty of kids whose parents fight to get them into the preschool who are not Jewish. Why? It is one the top preschools in the area. but sometimes it is similar reason's to your friends.

I have met people who have "Jew envy." since they believe some of the Jewish stereotypes. I usually find it funny. When I got my doctorate degree at 30 I had more than one person tell me that is was because I was Jewish. WTF? They do not hand them out at UCLA ya know! If you believe that we are also all comedians, millionaires, and money grubbing.

But the average Jewish person in America has a higher level of education than the general population (do not slam me - I did not say intelligence here - I've met my share of dumb asses....)

There are a lot of conservative Jews. If you believe the stereotype about having more money- well several Jews find they are more in line with smaller government and less taxes. Jews as a whole tend to be more liberal (Haddassah the leading Jewish Women's activist group is pro-choice) but certainly that is not all of them.

The funny thing it is not the religion your friend actually knows or likes- it is the culture. And that unfortunately you can hang out with- but usually not fully embrace. I am not a big fan of aspects of the Jewish religion, but I am proud of my heritage ias being social activist, or valuing education.

ironically, Jews are not inclusive at all. You have to go through hell an high water to become Jewish. No Jew ever comes to your door wanting you to go to temple. You do need to pay to go. They view themselves as an exclusive group of God's chosen and only if your mom was Jewish do you really get to say you are Jewish in some circles (Reformed Jews may let in kids from only Jewish dads). So my kids are Jewish. My brother kids are not (None of us married Jews).

The sad part is there is nothing in the culture or the religion to save her kids from whatever negative cultural influences she perceives are out there. I know anyone of us, Christian, athiest, Agnostic, Jew, Hindu, Muslim can bring up kids well in our own religions., customs and cultures. We also can all screw it up. I believe there are many ways to "God" or Heaven" Or spiritual fulfillment". The Jews do not have a lock on this ( but of course I do not believe any religion does - unless you have faith.)

ExCareerGal <--- who should be grading papers!

[Scout]

ECG, that's too funny about Jewish envy. That's exactly what she has.

She did always say she wanted to marry a Jewish guy, but it didn't turn out that way. And why? Because she wanted a Jewsih wedding, mostly. The Jewish community center thing is not a big deal--it's close to them and more affordable than some of the other options. But by the same token, part of her logic was that her dd was asking about stuff because all of her friends outside of school are Jewish. On one hand, I was like "well, what's wrong with just telling her "We're not Jewish or religious, that's why we don't go to temple or church?" But then she said she feels like she wants them to "blend in" and to feel like they are part of something. So OTOH, I was thinking maybe she needs to get them around my diverse groups of kids if she doesn't want her dd to feel like the only non-Jewish one.

Really, if this were about religion, and if she wanted to convert herself, I would not have any issue with that at all. But the way things are, I feel like her reasoning is bizarre and that the whole thing is just not going to work out like she thinks it will, KWIM? Her ideas about Jewish culture are stereotypical and unrealistic, and even if they weren't, it's just not something you can invite yourself into.

[prescott]

The whole thing sounds very Seinfeld-esque -- she's a female George!

[Scout]

Wait, George was Jewish, wasn't he? Maybe she's Elaine.

[prescott]

Hmmm, I don't think he was Jewish... I meant it more that it seemed like a George situation to want to undertake something as serious as conversion for a completely shallow reason.

In fact, wasn't there an episode where he was trying to convert to "Latvian Orthodox" to get a woman to sleep with him?

[Scout]

Yeah, I remember that. And then wasn't she in love with Kramer or something? Lol.

George was Jewish though. So was Jerry. I think Elaine and Kramer were the only gentiles.

[DietCokeHead]

If George was Jewish, WTF was up with Festivus? No Hanukkah for the Constanzas??? (sorry if I butchered the spelling)

Are you sure he was Jewish???

[DietCokeHead]

http://www.jewishaz.com/jewishnews/970905/tv.shtml

OK, checkit out!

[prescott]

How did people get such lofty questions answered before the internets?

[Jessica]