The Imperfect Community

[Petulant Pixie]

I guess why this bothers me so much is because I really like the different customs and traditions of America. I like that it has so many different people with different heritages, and I think that trying to spread things out and dilute them so they're all right for *everyone* does it all a disservice. I think that watering down Christmas so the religious aspect of it can be ignored isn't a good thing.

And yeah, I can buy that the other things are secular, Kristy. I'm just suggesting that non-Christians take those secular trappings and put them to a different name, and not dilute Christmas or Easter. Why can't those holidays be left as religious? You can take the tree, the presents, the bunny, the eggs and so on and just call it "X-mas" and "Spring celebration". Why do you have to keep the names that have been associated with Christian celebrations for hundreds of years?

I know YOU'RE not going to do that. It would be ridiculous for you, in your own family to say, "Hey, let's not call it Christmas this year, let's call it something else!". But, as a society, I wish that as the holiday evolves it can branch separately, that the Christian Christmas can stay religious and that the secular one, while celebrated at the same time and with all the same trappings has a different kind of name.

My best friend growing up was Greek. We had Easter, they had Greek Easter. There's was like a month later and had some different customs attached, but on her Greek Easter morning, she had the eggs, the bunny, and all that. Other cultures and religions are able to keep their customs intact. I don't think that the "melting pot" means we should have to give up fundamental aspects of our customs, and anyone taking Jesus out of Christmas and Easter is doing that. In my opinion.

And, Kristy, do you listen to Christmas music? I mean, Silent Night and Little Town of Bethlehem, and O Come All Ye Faithful? Even Here Comes Santa Claus mentions God. How can you listen to Christmas music and not acknowledge that it is a Christian celebration?

[Petulant Pixie]

And, I don't mean that non -Christians shouldn't celebrate Christmas. I think that if they do though, they should at least acknowledge that it is a Christian holiday. It doesn't mean that you have to go to church, or even DO anything differently, other than refraining from posting on boards that Christmas isn't only a religious holiday, lol. I'm suggesting that if you WANT a holiday that isn't relgious that you claim a new one and encorporate what you want, lol.

Anyway...I spent waaay too much time here today. Liz is practicing crawling here, so she's been very entertained while I've been busy. But, time's up, I need to move on.

[Scout]

I do listen to Christmas music. There's Silent Night and Joy to the World, but there's also Santa Claus is Coming to Town and I'll be Home For Christmas (my favorite, as sung by Rosemary Clooney). And again, I do acknowldege that Christmas has religious significance. I just don't acknowledge that it is a strictly religious holiday. (And FTR, I also enjoy some old-school gospel music. Just because I don't believe in something, that doesn't mean I can't appreciate some parts of it. There is nothing like singing Amazing Grace, you know?) I don't believe in Santa either, but I still think the Santa tradition is fun, and I like songs about him.

Hey, what is the thing with the Greek eggs all being red? I figured it had something to do with the blood of Christ?

[prescott]

[Sewingsiren]

[Petulant Pixie]

[prescott]

[Jessica]

Well, PP, for what it's worth, I do understand what you're saying and I do agree with it to a large extent. For most Christians, X-mas is about the birth of Christ first and the extracurricular activities are an added bonus of festivities, all designed to spread joy, goodwill and togetherness and giving. To me, the same atheists that bitch about Christianity/Christian holidays/Christian ideals are many of the same people jumping on the Christmas bandwagon, and it does seem a little hypocritical. I mean, even though there are aspects of Christmas that aren't religious, if you don't believe that Jesus is divine, than why bother? Even my Jewish step-mother makes a comment every single year, when we have our celebrations that it isn't her holiday and we all nod our head and say, "Yes, we know." I get the feeling she feels guilty about celebrating it with us. <shrugs> Not that Jewish people can't celebrate parts of X-mas, that's not what I'm saying...it's just interesting that she feels the need to clarify that she is celebrating it because of us--her Christian step-kids even though it has no religious signifigance for her. If we weren't in her life, I have no doubt that she wouldn't be celebrating it though.

[ExCareerGal]

You can't have it both ways. You want this country to recognize Christmas as a national holiday, give you the day off- but no one else gets to share it? Why bother you say? For all the reasons we have listed here. This county does not let non Christains off for Hannukah or other more important Jewish holidays unless like this year it falls on Christmas. I am off the week of Christmas to New Years. Growing up it was the only week my Dad was home from work too!

If we want to get together with family and friends you can do Thanksgiving but that is about it (since spring break is often not on Easter or Passover!) I would not be bothered if you lit a menorah and gave Hannukah present but did not believe in Judism. Why would any of you care what I do for my Christmas (Sorry but that is the word for that day off!) It does not sound very "Christian" of you. Guess what- Even non Christians like to get together with their extended family and have a celebration!

I am not the one who commercialized Christmas. But it was the commericalizing of Christmas that made me feel left out of it as a child.

By the way want to know what Jews do on Christmas? Growing up we went to the movies and eat chinese food. They are the only places open.

[Petulant Pixie]

BTW, ECG, I do NOT think that Christmas should be a national holiday. I believe in separation of church and state. There was a time (years ago, but Scott may try to dig up an ancient thread discussing this) when my conservative friends and husband were trying to convince me otherwise, but I stand firm on that belief now. It wasn't right for Christians to force their holiday on everyone. And honestly, as I indicated to Scott, I don't care what you do on your day off. But, truthfully, we've had similar Christmases--going to movies and eating Chinese food, before we had children, when we didn't have extended family around. The years my parents don't come to visit us, they spend at a local casino.

And, ECG, please go back and re-read my posts. I've specifically said that I have no issue with non-Christians celebrating Christmas. I just don't agree with the idea that Christmas (and Easter) are not Christian holidays--that they don't exist for the Chrisitan meaning. I disagree that they have and should evolve into a secular "American" holiday. If I were to particiapte in Hannukah, I would do it knowing it was a Jewish religious holiday.

I envy those who celebrate Hannukah, and people like my Greek friend, whose beliefs and customs are like a treasured little egg that they bring out to share with those close to them. Christmas has lost that, if it ever had it. Yeah, I'm sure it is the Christian's falult that it's been diluted. I just think it's a shame.

Seriously, I was just expressing my opinion about the holiday.

I really thought this was just a pleasant exchange of opinions on the topic. I should have known things would turn, and yes, Scott, I found your post to be very antagonistic. And ECG's was heading that way, too.

The difference between MY opinion on this--on whether or not Christmas is/should evolve into a secular holiday (which I thought was related to the original holiday card topic) and things like gay marriage (which you brought in, Scott) is that I'm not supporting any legislature to take away anyone's right to do what they want. I'm not jumping on any legal bandwagon to MAKE people do or stop doing things according to my viewpoint. People on this board have in the past been very outspoken about not allowing gay people the legal right to marry. They've outwardly supported a law suit that a guy lodged against his kid's school for showing kids a book that had same-sex parents in it. All I'm doing is musing about whether the holiday should evolve, and stating my opinion on it!

See, to me, that's what it means to be a liberal--to be able to say, "I see it this way, and I believe I'm right, but I can accept that you don't see it that way, too, and that you think you're right.". People don't have to agree on given topics, but they do have to tolerate the opposing opinion. I've said time and again on this thread that the holiday is going to evolve as it will, but I wish...whatever . I can do that. I can have an opinion on something! It's not a mandate. I wouldn't even support any mandate on how Christmas should be celebrated! It was just my own stupid opinion, and what a waste of time it was expressing it.

My bad for trying to communicate on this board. I've been back what, a few days. Well, Merry Christmas everyone, see ya later.

Kristy and SS--no hard feelings, right?

[Jessica]

[prescott]

I'm not denying that it's somewhat hypocritical, I just don't care.

[ExCareerGal]

"I really thought this was just a pleasant exchange of opinions on the topic. I should have known things would turn, and yes, Scott, I found your post to be very antagonistic. And ECG's was heading that way, too. "

I thought this board consisted of people who could handle adult discourse on a topic. I see no where where I was antagonistic. Sorry you felt that way PP. I also see you want to make sure there are no hard feelings with SS and Kristie but you have no problem being upset with me. My last response was directed at Jessica's comments not yours so tyou had no reason to be defensive. I am an opionionated person but I though we were debating! I am fairly new on the board so I would appreciate not being assigned intent when you do not know me.

[Petulant Pixie]

ECG, I am not new to the board, I've been coming here since before it is what it is now. So, when I tried to make sure I'm OK with SS and Kristy, it's because we have history here.

I left because I just don't have time to keep trying to explain myself and then havie weird and totally incorrect things drawn out of what I'm trying to communicate. It just isn't worth it. And, no, like I said before, I can't come here and just be friendly on the friendly threads and keep ALL opnions of anything just to myself.

So, I tried. No hard feelings, either ECG, I don't know you well enough to have hard feelings, lol.

See you guys around.

[Scout]