The Imperfect Community

[maxmama]

After years of providing care, I can quite honestly say that people do not work in abortion clinics for their self-interest, as would be the case with the slightly convoluted and overreaching 80-year-old house analogy above. I have never had another job that required me to go through a metal detector for a job interview, nor one where we routinely had bulletproof glass between us and the waiting room. It can be an enormously stressful job both due to internal pressures (many women seeking services, few providers) and the fear that one of the (legal and Constitutionally-protected) protestors would be the one to pull a gun as I went home for the day.

Second, if I am to be accused of being biased, please do so, but do not accuse me of actually being a bias (noun v. adjective; you may want to review).

Third, of course I'm biased. Find me someone who isn't biased on any topic, much less abortion. My bias, however, comes from personal experience as a care provider, as well as my experience parenting and as someone who has experienced a pregnancy loss. I have had more full-spectrum experiences in this area than have many people, and having had those experiences I am thoroughly and without reservation pro-choice.

I am troubled by the idea that because few teens may die because they cannot tell their parents of their choice that their deaths are unimportant. Why does Becky Bell's death not matter, just because it isn't common? It matters to her family.

My data on the safety of abortion v. delivery comes from the CDC. Abortion carries less risk of complication in the first trimester than a tonsillectomy or an IM injection of penicillin. Safety is not the issue with legal abortion; it's well-established. As someone who has had pre-eclampsia with HELLP syndrome and has permanent renal damage, and as a labor nurse, I am fully aware of the physical risks of late pregnancy and delivery.

I also am troubled by the implied reasoning that because sexually active teens have made one questionable decision (to have sex) that their decision-making regarding their pregnancy must then be suspect. I believe in young women's right to determine the course of their lives, whether through parenting, adoption or abortion. I am not them. I will not live with the consequences of their actions and it is not my decision to make. I love my son immensely, but I do not have the right to decide the rest of his life. All I can do is to prepare him as well as I can to make those decisions himself.

[Jessica]

[kathyjm]

Jessica...




I get tired of the argument about a girl that died or the anomoly...it goes BOTH ways.

http://www.ambrosian.org/TeenDies.html

This girl might have had a chance had her parents known what was going on. Maybe her visit to the ER that her boyfriend took her to wouldn't have ended in painkillers and being sent home. Her parents might have known to start asking questions... questions these kids were too unaware to ask! Their baby died and they didn't know what what happening until it was too late for them to be the parents and make some decisions.

[maxmama]

You cannot compare "apples to apples" with the comparison of a first-trimester abortion safety with the risks of a first-trimester pregnancy, because by definition a first-trimester pregnancy will not remain a first-trimester pregnancy. It's a specious argument to say that because the risks of terminating or continuing a pregnancy at that stage are both negligible, they are equivalent, scientifically or logically. My point with the safety of early abortion is that I cannot see the logic in requiring parental consent for abortion in order to ensure safety when continuing a pregnancy (inarguably more risky, though still quite safe) does not require consent. Whose safety are we protecting?

I am comfortable with abortion, both first and second trimester. I do not place a quota on the number of abortions during one's lifetime that are acceptable because who am I to make that judgment? I also do not consider it a tragedy, though it would not be the first choice for most women. Difficult decisions need to be made by the person most affected: the woman. The judgment and second-guessing of others adds nothing.

Policy does aim to protect the unusual situation. That was the purpose of a representative rather than a direct democracy. The use of the government to legislate family relationships and support is inappropriate. You cannot decree supportive parents for every pregnant teen. Requiring parental consent for reproductive health care in general does a disservice to teens who are already lacking in healthy adult relationships. Are we to believe that our relationships with our children are so tenuous that if they are not required to seek parental consent they will not seek our counsel? I have more faith in my child and in my parenting than that.

[kathyjm]

Maxmomma, this debate was not about 'consent' but about the parental NOTIFICATION proposition that did not pass in California. The proposition did have a back up plan for those kids who felt they couldn't tell their parents for safety reasons.

Obviously, you are not seeing this debate for what it is but turning it into and abortion issue. It certainly is not. Its an issue about wether parents should KNOW about a medical procedure a physician is performing on their children.

Do you have a daughter? If you do, I pray that you are never faced with her getting an abortion and you find out years down the road. That has happened in my family and for no good reason. It's terrible.

You talk as if it's a simple medical procedure that you're OK with. So if your child wanted to go behind your back and get liposuction and was able to without telling you, you'd be OK with that (i'm using that as an example because there too have been instances of DEATH from a perceived safe procedure that is elective)? We're talking about children, children who are obviously NOT exhibiting the capacity to make rational decisions (otherwise they wouldn't be pg in the first place) and they do need parental guidance. That doesn' say the parents wont allow their children to do it but the parents NEED to be involved. they are responsible for taking care of their children.

Do you know the statistics of depression or guilt in the aftermath of abortions?? Do you know that YEARS after, people live with the ramifications of that? Kids are not capable of seeing beyond next week or even today. It's a developmental milestone that comes with maturity.

I honestly dont give a rip that you worked in an abortion clinic. that doesnt make you some expert to me. Where are you for these children (i'm am NOT talking about adults here) years later when they realize the magnitude of the decision they've made and are dealing with depression?

I have a sister who had TWO secret abortions as a teen. She in now infertile due to PCOS and cannot have chilren of her own. Want to know how much she wishes she DIDNT have those abortions now? Want to know how angry she is? I have another sister who had an abortion as a teen. She has since given birth to two very very early preemies. SHe too has dealt with guilt and anxiety and has been in therapy and much of what she discusses is the abortion. I have a 3rd sister who had an abortion for BC. I was pg at the same time (within a week apart) and the day I heard my baby's heartbeat for the first time, she killed hers (if I can hear a heartbeat, this was not a simple 'medical' procedure). I dont know how that sister handles it but I can tell you it was difficult on the REST of the family.

My mom had an abortion after already having us 4 kids. We each were so angry when we found that out. I could have had another sibling in our close nit family.

I'm telling you all of this because I have to wonder how much you understand about the WHOLE picture and not just the procedure itself. It effects the entire family. Children can't understand that and they need support from those that have their best interests at heart...their family. Not some doctor who is paid or some assistant who is willing to call that child's home and LIE about who she is. That is not in a child's best interest. I'd go so far as to say that is the work of the devil.

I am prochoice (for the right reasons). But from my life experience, I can tell you that MOST teens get abortion for convenience. They dont tell their parents not because they fear for their safety but they are ASHAMED and dont want their parents to know what they've really been up to. They want an easy out. Thank goodness for planned parenthood, huh?

[maxmama]

The APA does not recognize post-abortion depression as a distinct phenomenon. A search of PubMED (a common source of medical research data) does not turn up any reliable data on depression, etc. specifically related to abortion and not confounded by other life experiences. Of course some women are depressed after an abortion; it's a major life change. Some women are depressed after delivery, too -- did you miss the concept of postpartum depression?

I'm sorry that your sister had that experience. I also have PCOS and secondary infertility related to it. However, you cannot blame a history of abortion for PCOS; it's a metabolic disorder. Likewise, first-trimester abortion is not associated with increased risk of preterm labor. Would some women have made a different choice at a different time in their lives? Of course. Women, including teens, make decisions based on the circumstances of the time they are making the decision.

I don't really differentiate between parental notification and parental consent laws. Obviously, if your goal is to avoid telling your parents of your decision, then whether you need to produce a consent form or a notification signature makes little difference.

I brought up my experience working with approximately seven hundred women choosing abortion because I feel honored to have worked with them, just as I feel honored when I care for laboring families. I learned something from every patient I had, and my beliefs are colored by these first-hand experiences, not by the interpretations of others.

Also, I'm puzzled by the assertion that one can be pro-choice "for the right reasons". Who are you to make that decision? It reminds me of the protestors who would come to the clinic one day as patients, but say "but I have a really good reason for having an abortion!" Why is anyone's reason better than anyone else's? Who has determined what are the right reasons (or age, number of previous children, ethnicity, income, etc) that entitle one woman to a choice and another to be denied the same?

[kathyjm]

well, IMO, morally, birth control is not a good reason for abortion, especially in children.

I KNOW my sisters issues aren't BECAUSE of the abortions, but their guilt over them years later ARE. Also, chilren are not women. Why do you ASSUME all parents will not allow their children to get abortions?? that's bs.

Without using the "well some girls are in danger or were raped" argument, can you please justify to me why a parent should NOT have a RIGHT to know that a doctor is performing a potentially harmful medical procedure on their child? I dont want to hear how many abortions you've assisted, I want to see why people with opinions such as yours JUSTIFY this and without the scare tactics, please. Pretend like it's not the 'a' word...how do you justify it?

[Jessica]