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Princesso
Noticably Flawed
Joined: 22 Dec 2002
Posts: 547
Location: California
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 Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 10:49 pm Post subject: Re: OK, debate it here please |
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| prescott wrote: |
To me, with the elimination of "parental rights", you might as well throw out all laws relating to minors. If your child feels they are mature enough to drink, get married, have sex with a 25-year-old, or sign a contract, hey, then why not let them?
I don't really see how you can cherry pick which medical procedures require a parent's involvement and which do not, no matter how different they are. |
Exactly. Either they are mature enough to make decisions about their health and well being in all areas, including drinking, smoking, getting married, voting, getting a tattoo, serving in the armed forces, and dating 50 year olds, or they aren't. I don't want my child doing any of the above things without my knowing because they aren't mature enough as teens to know what is best for them and that's why legally they can't do those things. It doesn't make sense to say that they can't do any of the things I listed at a young age, but they can have an abortion without even telling me they are going to do it. They simply aren't old enough or mature enough to be able to give consent without my knowing. |
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Sewingsiren
Celebrating Imperfection
Joined: 12 Nov 2004
Posts: 838
Location: the land of cotton
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| Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2005 8:58 am Post subject: Re: OK, debate it here please |
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| prescott wrote: |
| To me, with the elimination of "parental rights", you might as well throw out all laws relating to minors. If your child feels they are mature enough to drink, get married, have sex with a 25-year-old, or sign a contract, hey, then why not let them? |
I do not understand the logic of your argument. No one is saying that all laws pertaining to minors should be dropped.
| prescott wrote: |
| I don't really see how you can cherry pick which medical procedures require a parent's involvement and which do not, no matter how different they are. |
We cherry pick when minors are considered adults all the time when they are put on trial for a crime, the deciding factor is usually how much money the minor defendant has. |
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prescott
Community Techie
Joined: 21 Apr 2002
Posts: 3347
Location: Outside your window
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| Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2005 9:29 am Post subject: Re: OK, debate it here please |
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| Sewingsiren wrote: |
| I do not understand the logic of your argument. No one is saying that all laws pertaining to minors should be dropped. |
My point being that I don't get how we can say that minors are not responsible enough to decide for themselves on seemingly simple things, but they are "adult" enough to decide to have an abortion, simply because they also decided to have sex. So, is that same 14-year-old also adult enough to decide to keep the baby? 
And this comment made earlier led me to this argument: "Actually, I think a child's basic rights almost always come before parental rights."
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| We cherry pick when minors are considered adults all the time when they are put on trial for a crime, the deciding factor is usually how much money the minor defendant has. |
Actually, many states have laws that automatically have the case transferred to adult court for certain offenses/circumstances. Regardless, I think the issue of the fairness of our criminal court system is a little off topic. |
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Sewingsiren
Celebrating Imperfection
Joined: 12 Nov 2004
Posts: 838
Location: the land of cotton
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| Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2005 10:06 am Post subject: Re: OK, debate it here please |
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| prescott wrote: |
My point being that I don't get how we can say that minors are not responsible enough to decide for themselves on seemingly simple things, but they are "adult" enough to decide to have an abortion, simply because they also decided to have sex. |
My point is that if a minor has become pregnant they are in an adult situation, there is no changing that. Whether they end the pregnancy with abortion, have the baby and give it up for adoption, or keep it, those are all adult decisions(all by the way carry a posiblity of regret as well) . It is very unfortunate that a child be in the position to have to make these decisions at such a young age, but they are. I do think that person who is pregnant should have ultimate control over that decision. I also think that the vast majority of minors who have reasonable loving parents will tell their parents and allow their parents opinion of what they should do influence the decision, that should be ultimately theirs (the minor).
| prescott wrote: |
| So, is that same 14-year-old also adult enough to decide to keep the baby? |
14 yo's do have babies, whether I think an 14 year old is old enough to keep and take care of a baby, doesn't matter. I believe it is her right to make that decision.
| prescott wrote: |
| And this comment made earlier led me to this argument: "Actually, I think a child's basic rights almost always come before parental rights." |
I didn't write that, but I don't consider drinking beer or getting your nipple pieced a basic right, I do consider the decision on whether or not to have a baby a basic right, though.
| prescott wrote: |
| Sewingsiren wrote: |
| We cherry pick when minors are considered adults all the time when they are put on trial for a crime, the deciding factor is usually how much money the minor defendant has. |
Actually, many states have laws that automatically have the case transferred to adult court for certain offenses/circumstances. Regardless, I think the issue of the fairness of our criminal court system is a little off topic. |
It is off topic, but it is an example of when a minors actions force him/her into the adult world. |
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Sewingsiren
Celebrating Imperfection
Joined: 12 Nov 2004
Posts: 838
Location: the land of cotton
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| Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2005 11:14 am Post subject: OK, debate it here please |
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Jessica,
If you click on this address and scroll down to Table 4, you will see a chart that compares, teen pregnancy, birth, and abortion rates, state by state. The information is old though (the pregnancy info from 1988 and the abortion info from 1992). I couldn't find anything recent that made a specific comparison of pregancy and abortion rates state by state. It looks like Ill. is ranks 16th overall in teen prenancy rate per 1000, NC ranks 10th overall in teen pregnancy rate per 1000. Ill. ranks 18th overall amongst teen abortions per 1000 and NC ranks 16th overall for teen abortions per 1000.
http://www.guttmacher.org/media/nr/newsrelease597.html
I cannot find out when our parental consent laws were passed or if they have always been there. Ill. does have laws regarding parental notification but they are currently not being inforced because of litagation (and I don't know how long that has been in effect either). |
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Scout
Queen of Imperfection
Joined: 20 Dec 2002
Posts: 3390
Location: home of the blues
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| Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2005 6:16 pm Post subject: OK, debate it here please |
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I was wondering about something--what kind of anaesthesia do they use for regular, first-term abortions? I can see that bing a big issue, just because it's such a liability for the doctors.
This isn't about abortion, but I think it gives some excellent insights into the mind of a pregnant teenager. It's "When I Was Garbage" by Allison Crewes. She went on to become a huge advocate for teen mothers and was the producer of girlmom.com (an adamantly pro-choice site). Sadly, she died of a seizure caused by Wellbutrin earlier this year. |
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DietCokeHead
Queen of Imperfection
Joined: 29 Apr 2002
Posts: 3805
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| Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2005 9:04 pm Post subject: OK, debate it here please |
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I was wondering about something--what kind of anaesthesia do they use for regular, first-term abortions?
Since I think that medically, it's the same as a D&C you would have after a miscarriage, it could be done with Versed (which is a sedative that is also an amnesiac). I don't think it's considered a general anesthesia but I am not sure. I had the Versed thru an IV for my D&C and the entire procedure takes less than 5 minutes then you're awake again. And in my case, awake and acting like a drunk idiot, trying to touch people in the hallway as I was wheeled back to my room. |
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Scout
Queen of Imperfection
Joined: 20 Dec 2002
Posts: 3390
Location: home of the blues
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| Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 10:45 am Post subject: OK, debate it here please |
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| I don't know what they gave me when I had a D&C with my first mc, but they told me it would not put me to sleep, and I woke up like 3 hours later. Apparently they didn't take the massive blood loss into account when they calculated my dosage. |
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Bow2PrincessAnnabelle
Slightly Flawed
Joined: 02 Dec 2005
Posts: 5
Location: Chattanooga, TN
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| Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 10:17 am Post subject: OK, debate it here please |
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| First off let me say I live in Tennessee where you have to inform one parent before an abortion. I was 17 when I got pregnant. I knew I wanted an abortion the moment that little blue line came up. I really didn't like kids and wasn't even sure I ever wanted any. I just didn't want my mom to find out and be disappointed in me although I was sure she would support me. Because of the law I didn't immediately make the appointment like I had wanted to.. I had to gather the courage to tell my mom first which gave me a few days to think about it. After really considering the situation I started having some doubts. My best friends forced me to tell my mom. She wasn't mad.. but more sad and dissapointed in me. I told her that I was thinking about having an abortion. That's when she revealed she had had 6 abortions before she got pregnant with me. She then told me how it had affected her negatively but that if it was truly what I wanted she would help me. Needless to say I changed my mind. She told me she would be right beside me if I chose adoption, and help me in every way possible if I decided to be a mother. I became a mother on march 20. 2004 to a gorgeous daughter, annabelle and my mother has been true to her word with clothes, babysitting, and paying for college. If it wasn't for the law here I wouldn't have my most perfect angel. I know I would never want Annabelle to go through with something so life changing as an abortion without me. What if something happened to her while she was there I would have no idea, or what about when she came home and fell into a depression.. I would have no idea how to help her or why. We need this law in all the states. At the time a few of my friends had skipped school to travel over state lines for an abortion to avoid telling their parents which creates whole new dangers. If there were complications afterward and they needed to go to a hospital who would be there to take them and be responsible for them in another state. Why should a young girl be able to get an abortion without parental notification when they can't even get into an R rated movie without parents? |
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Jessica
Queen of Imperfection
Joined: 20 Apr 2002
Posts: 4808
Location: Chi-town
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| Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 12:49 pm Post subject: Re: OK, debate it here please |
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| Bow2PrincessAnnabelle wrote: |
| Needless to say I changed my mind. She told me she would be right beside me if I chose adoption, and help me in every way possible if I decided to be a mother. I became a mother on march 20. 2004 to a gorgeous daughter, annabelle and my mother has been true to her word with clothes, babysitting, and paying for college. If it wasn't for the law here I wouldn't have my most perfect angel. |
Judging by the looks of your beautiful daughter in your lovely avatar photo, you definitely made the right choice!! She is gorgeous!!! Thanks for sharing your inspirational story! I'm so glad your mother was as supportive as she was/is. She really stepped up to what a parent is supposed to provide for their children.
Congratulations on that sweet daughter of yours! |
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maxmama
Slightly Flawed
Joined: 03 Dec 2005
Posts: 4
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| Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2005 10:16 pm Post subject: OK, debate it here please |
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I'm coming late to this, just as I do to so many things!
I am a nurse. I work now in L&D, but I worked in abortion clinics for some years. I have some real concerns with issues that have been raised here because I have taken care of so many women, both young and older.
First, I never had a patient in an AB clinic who took her decision lightly. This was true for my fourteen-year-old patients and my forty-year-old patients. I never failed to be amazed by the clarity my patients had in their decisions.
Second, I do not believe in parental notification laws. Most research demonstrates, and my personal experience concurs, that around 90% of teens do inform at least one parent of their decision, and in fact the most common scenario was a teen coming into the clinic with her partner and mom. The teens who did not choose to inform their parents generally had concrete reasons not to do so.
Third, am I the only one who remembers Becky Bell, the Indiana teen who died in the 1980s from an illegal abortion rather than disappoint her parents and comply with Indiana's parental notification law?
Fourth, abortion is approximately ten times safer than carrying to term and delivering, yet we do not require parental consent for young women to continue their pregnancies.
Finally, states without parental notification/consent laws (including my home state of Washington, which also has Medicaid funding for young women's abortions, prenatal care or birth control -- as she chooses) do not have significantly different rates of teen pregnancy from those that do.
I feel strongly on this because I cared for and about every woman whose hand I held during her abortion, just as I care for and about every woman whose hand I hold during her labor. Young women lead complex lives that they may not want to share with their parents. Is this regrettable? YEs. Is is a fact? Yes. I want them to have safe health care access regardless. |
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Jessica
Queen of Imperfection
Joined: 20 Apr 2002
Posts: 4808
Location: Chi-town
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| Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2005 11:02 am Post subject: Re: OK, debate it here please |
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| maxmama wrote: |
I am a nurse. I work now in L&D, but I worked in abortion clinics for some years. I have some real concerns with issues that have been raised here because I have taken care of so many women, both young and older. |
So, not exactly an unbias opinion, eh?
| maxmama wrote: |
| First, I never had a patient in an AB clinic who took her decision lightly. This was true for my fourteen-year-old patients and my forty-year-old patients. I never failed to be amazed by the clarity my patients had in their decisions. |
Of course, we're talking about children here, not 40 year olds, and given the fact that most of them are in abortion clinics because they had unprotected sex, their pregnancies are a result of an indiscretion to begin with. (Not that it can't happen to the best of us, but my guess is that it happens in cases of underage, unwed mothers the majority of the time.)
It's hard for me to believe that a 14 yr. old has the clarity of a 40 year old in this instance. With less than half the life experience and maturity, my guess is that the major concern is a [fairly] easy solution to a problem, not the ending of a unique life and person.
| maxmama wrote: |
| Second, I do not believe in parental notification laws. Most research demonstrates, and my personal experience concurs, that around 90% of teens do inform at least one parent of their decision, and in fact the most common scenario was a teen coming into the clinic with her partner and mom. The teens who did not choose to inform their parents generally had concrete reasons not to do so. |
And, there is a stipulation or flexibility in the law to allow for those small percentages where teens are afraid to tell their parents.
| maxmama wrote: |
| Third, am I the only one who remembers Becky Bell, the Indiana teen who died in the 1980s from an illegal abortion rather than disappoint her parents and comply with Indiana's parental notification law? |
Although a tragedy in and of itself, certainly I do not believe this to be the norm or an innate consequence of the notification law. Yes, this was unfortunate, but again, 1) there is an out in which a child can get a judges consent to forgo the notification and 2) I see this a fluke or freakish situation, not the norm and not the basis to create laws for the lowest common denominator. Sex is a huge responsibility, and if a 14 year old is going to engage in unprotected sex, they should be responsible enough to tell her parent(s) that she made a mistake, IMO.
| maxmama wrote: |
| Fourth, abortion is approximately ten times safer than carrying to term and delivering, yet we do not require parental consent for young women to continue their pregnancies. |
10 times safer????? Where are you getting that from? Sound like a potentially interesting motto: "Get rid of your unwanted children: Terminate your pregnancy, it's safer than having one!"
To me, this is just political propaganda for Pro-choice.
| maxmama wrote: |
| Finally, states without parental notification/consent laws (including my home state of Washington, which also has Medicaid funding for young women's abortions, prenatal care or birth control -- as she chooses) do not have significantly different rates of teen pregnancy from those that do. |
Again, I'd like to see that data. That is compelling to me.
| maxmama wrote: |
| I feel strongly on this because I cared for and about every woman whose hand I held during her abortion, just as I care for and about every woman whose hand I hold during her labor. Young women lead complex lives that they may not want to share with their parents. Is this regrettable? YEs. Is is a fact? Yes. I want them to have safe health care access regardless. |
Well, we are facilitating the breakdown in parental/child relationships and allowing parents to be parents and children to be children with these non-notification laws, plus it *is* a major medical procedure and as many have mentioned, it's odd that one would be able to pick and choose what a parent should be notified of (tatooing, ear-piercing, tylenol at school etc.), yet one of the most life altering decisions, a parent has no right to know that their child is undergoing a major procedure. In most states, a doctor cannot even treat a child without parental notification or consent, yet I believe we may be undermining what is truly best for the child, in order to further a political agenda. Perhaps of that 10% that don't tell their parent, most of those parents (not all) would support their child's wishes and the child would come out of it with a bond to that parent that no law could ever conquer. Parent's are not the bad guys here. |
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Scout
Queen of Imperfection
Joined: 20 Dec 2002
Posts: 3390
Location: home of the blues
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| Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2005 5:37 pm Post subject: OK, debate it here please |
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| Jessica wrote: |
| So, not exactly an unbias opinion, eh? |
Yeah, like princess Annabelle's mom had an unbiased opinion. Why is one bias ok, but not the other?
| Jessica wrote: |
| And, there is a stipulation or flexibility in the law to allow for those small percentages where teens are afraid to tell their parents. |
Which is what? I've never heard of one. The Supreme Court just struck down one of these laws because it didn't even have a stipulation for medical emergencies unless they were likely to end in death. IOW, if the mother would be left infertile, brain damaged, paralyzed, etc, but alive, there was no exception if a parent could not be reached. Some lawyers tried to argue that the exception would be made, but the justices said the law itself did not allow for those instances and left doctors in an impossible situation. |
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Bow2PrincessAnnabelle
Slightly Flawed
Joined: 02 Dec 2005
Posts: 5
Location: Chattanooga, TN
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| Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 1:01 am Post subject: Re: OK, debate it here please |
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[quote="Scout"]
| Jessica wrote: |
| So, not exactly an unbias opinion, eh? |
Yeah, like princess Annabelle's mom had an unbiased opinion. Why is one bias ok, but not the other?
Actually.. yes my opinion on abortion is extremely unbiased. I made the personal decision for myself not to have an abortion (expecially arfter hearing my mothers experiences.) But I look at abortion on a case by case manner. I am 100% for parental notification laws but not 100% against abortion. |
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Jessica
Queen of Imperfection
Joined: 20 Apr 2002
Posts: 4808
Location: Chi-town
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| Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 7:35 am Post subject: Re: OK, debate it here please |
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| Scout wrote: |
| Jessica wrote: |
| So, not exactly an unbias opinion, eh? |
Yeah, like princess Annabelle's mom had an unbiased opinion. Why is one bias ok, but not the other? |
While it's true that most people are bias in one way or another, for *ME*, working in an abortion clinic is a political bias that loses credibility with me.
I mean, look, what if my county was to propose a policy that everyone who owned homes over 80 years old (and there are only a fraction of them in our county) were to get a significant property tax break and I went out telling everybody how great it was and how it should be supported, would you consider my bias more worthy than those who couldn't obtain an old house? Would you consider my opinion slightly skewed towards my own self interests?
I mean, if it were a research study of what the average parent thinks of notification, she would probably be disqualified. At least good research would. |
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