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kathyjm
Noticably Flawed
Joined: 17 Sep 2003
Posts: 702
Location: California
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 Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 12:39 pm Post subject: OK, debate it here please |
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Hi...opened up this thread so that we can debate this... My OP really was not for debating, I was just wanted to see the other side of the story for my own sanity....
Really to me, prop 73 was not about abortion. For me it was about my rights as a parents. And all the points brought up about parental consent on other issues (earrings, tatoos, tardy slips etc...) are why I feel this way. Its like chopping us off at the knees and leaving us with out the ability to be parents.
MY personal experience with teen abortions is this.... ALL of my sisters had them (i'm the only female in my family who hasn't).
My mom didn't know about them. I went with my sisters to planned parenthood. I answered the phone when planned parenthood called our home and acted like a girlfriend (I think that's evil by the way). My sisters didn't tell my mom out of SHAME...not because they feared for their lives. I would bet that MOST teen abortions are this way...it's shame or fear of the PG itself, not of the parents.
Why should we protect these kids who are behaving inappropriately??? They should not be having sex in the first place, so if they are and end up PG...well they need to be responsible for that and deal with the shame they may feel. I dont understand why we would ENABLE our children to be immoral (the sex thing). I think most of us can agree that our children should not be having sex...for a myriad of reasons.
The small minority have to fear child abuse. We have that challenge in all aspects of society...not just parental notification of abortion. an abused kid is an abused kid. WE are better served to beef up CPS...not turn this into an abortion issue.
The rape excuse... I'm pretty sure most children who have been RAPED will go to their parents and/or the police or it will at least come out to the parents then as to why there's a pregnancy. I think that child will be allowed an abortion by any judge or parent so again that excuse AGAINST parental notification doesn't sit well with me either.
I do know there are times when kids dont tell (my olders sister was raped at 12 and didn't tell until she was 15). but if there's a pg involved, i'm sure it would come out.
so, this prop wasn't about PERMISSION (so no forced pregnancies...but again, that to me is silly to..nobody forced the kids to have sex in the first place ususally) it was about NOTIFICATION.
I just pray for my daughters to have the self love and self esteem to wait until they are married (or at least adults) to have sex. If they dont', I PRAY they dont get pg. IF they do, I sure as heck hope they come to me so that I can help them. Lord knows the state isn't going to help me with this!
OMG to know a Dr. performed surgery on my child without my knowledge would KILL Me.
What if it wasn't abortion..what if it was say a breast augmentation or another cosmetic surgery (because that's elective like abortion is)... would you be OK in not knowing your minor child could do that without your permission??? |
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Princesso
Noticably Flawed
Joined: 22 Dec 2002
Posts: 547
Location: California
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| Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 8:41 pm Post subject: OK, debate it here please |
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| I agree with you. It wasn't really an abortion issue. It was about parental rights. I don't know what I would do if my daughter had an abortion and died from the anesthetic or bleeding or infection and noone had notified me. I am the parent. I am legally responsible for my child's well being and until she is 18, it is my job to keep her safe. If she is allowed to have surgery without me even knowing about it ahead of time, how can I keep her safe? How can I make sure that she knows what her options are so that she won't regret her decision later if I don't even know what she is planning to do? It is a huge inconsistency to allow them to have surgery without my consent or knowledge when it comes to abortion, then to require it for things that are much less serious. |
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Jessica
Queen of Imperfection
Joined: 20 Apr 2002
Posts: 4762
Location: Chi-town
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| Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 8:08 am Post subject: OK, debate it here please |
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| Kathy, I am in 100% agreement with you. I can't even think of anything else to add, and that's pretty rare! |
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Jessica
Queen of Imperfection
Joined: 20 Apr 2002
Posts: 4762
Location: Chi-town
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| Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 8:18 am Post subject: OK, debate it here please |
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Oh, I actually did think of something else to say, LOL. Wouldn't ya know it?
In Illinois you don't have to inform parents in order to proceed with an abortion and it's been that way for as long as I can remember. Anyway, many of my friends have had not just one abortion, but several. One girl I know had upwards of 7 or 8 abortions while we were teenagers. Obviously not having to notify her parents made this form of birth control very handy and sex inconsequential. Personally, I would *think* that using birth-control would be easier and less traumatic than having 7 or 8 abortions, but you know what???...most kids aren't emotionally mature enough or experienced enough to process it that way, that's why they are kids. |
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Scout
Queen of Imperfection
Joined: 20 Dec 2002
Posts: 3390
Location: home of the blues
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| Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 9:48 am Post subject: OK, debate it here please |
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| Quote: |
| Why should we protect these kids who are behaving inappropriately??? They should not be having sex in the first place, so if they are and end up PG...well they need to be responsible for that and deal with the shame they may feel. I dont understand why we would ENABLE our children to be immoral (the sex thing). I think most of us can agree that our children should not be having sex...for a myriad of reasons. |
Ok, I can't believe I am walking into this, but here goes. This argument is exactly the reason that many of us who are pro-choice oppose laws requiring parental consent. We should protect kids who are acting inappropriately because they are our kids, and they are going to make mistakes. To me, the idea that pregnancy is an appropriate punishment for the crime of having sex is abhorrent. A baby should not have to live its life as a punishment to some poor, stupid girl.
Making it harder for girls to get abortions (or access to birth control) will not keep them from having sex. Just like prohibition did not keep people from drinking. It would just push them to engage in riskier practices. You can't legislate morality, and you can't control what a teenage girl will do unless you lock her in the house all day long and watch her every second. I agree that abortion should not be used as birth control, but I don't see restricting access to abortions as the answer to that. Better sex ed programs that talk about the possible health consequences of multiple abortions would be a start.
In the end, laws like this just boil down to pro-lifers trying to limit access to abortions, period. Do I want my dd to ever go behind my back and have an abortion? Of course not. I hope I will be a good enough mother to her that she won't get into that situation, and that if she did, she would be able to tell me. But would I rather her have an abortion without my consent than resort to some other desperate measures that could hurt her or even kill her? You bet. To me, her reproductive rights overstep my parental rights. Actually, I think a child's basic rights almost always come before parental rights. For some reason, almost every time I see the term "parental rights" used, it is someone trying to shelter and control their child to a degree that I do not agree with.
And FWIW, pretty much all of the teenagers I have ever taught think that abortion is a very big deal, and most of them are very anti-choice. It's probably, again, because of where I live and the religious way most of them are raised. But most of them would never have an abortion unless there were extraordinary circumstances (but even if someone says "it's only ok if you get raped" someone will always disagree with them and say "it's still a baby.")
To me, there are two kinds of people in the world (  ): those who think people's actions can be controlled by rules and laws, and those who think people can only be educated and guided. To me, history and all of human experience have already disproved the first theory, yet we still keep trying to control. |
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Jessica
Queen of Imperfection
Joined: 20 Apr 2002
Posts: 4762
Location: Chi-town
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| Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 11:07 am Post subject: Re: OK, debate it here please |
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| Scout wrote: |
Making it harder for girls to get abortions (or access to birth control) will not keep them from having sex. Just like prohibition did not keep people from drinking. It would just push them to engage in riskier practices. You can't legislate morality, and you can't control what a teenage girl will do unless you lock her in the house all day long and watch her every second. |
Okay, obviously you aren't understanding the proposal either. It's not about making it illegal for young girls to get an abortion, it's about parental rights and you just completely glossed over that and refuse to even acknowledge that the more we limit parental rights, the less you will be able to raise your children how you see fit. Ironic, given that you claim that pro-life people want to legislate morality, but isn't taking away parents right to know that their MINOR daughter is undergoing a major medical procedure legislating your morality?
| Scout wrote: |
| In the end, laws like this just boil down to pro-lifers trying to limit access to abortions, period. Do I want my dd to ever go behind my back and have an abortion? Of course not. I hope I will be a good enough mother to her that she won't get into that situation, and that if she did, she would be able to tell me. But would I rather her have an abortion without my consent than resort to some other desperate measures that could hurt her or even kill her? You bet. To me, her reproductive rights overstep my parental rights. |
And you should be allowed to parent your daughter that way, but I should be allowed, in the United States of America to know if my minor child is undergoing a medical procedure.
What it boils down to is that you are wanting to pick and choose how other raise their children, whereas I am only seeking my parental right to know. For parents like you, it wouldn't matter anyway as you would give your blessing either way, the only difference in my positiion is that even though I would give my blessing, I would want to know and we all know that teenagers, even in the best of situations might hide something like that. I'm sure it's not the proudest moment and kids are very short-sighted. They don't always make the most sound decisions as for their lack of experience. You can be the best mother in the world and yet a kid that doesn't have to "let you down" (for lack of better words), might not tell.
As far as birth control, I don't think a parent does have to know about birth control. That is not a major medical procedure and is a responsible choice for birth control, abortion doesn't really fall into that category. It's not even close to being the same thing.
It's not about limiting abortion. If it were, it would have been a proposal to only allow an abortion with a parent's consent and that's not what it's about.
Plus, the whole back-alley abortion thing is so over-dramatized. It happened a lot, lot less than pro-choicers rant about. I know there are all these statistics, but I'd love to see the numbers from a non-partisan, non-bias, credible group. The whole wire hanger up the crotch is just as much of a play on fear and emotions as the other side. There both exactly the same really, just with entirely different positions. Neither is more holy than the other.
It's not for me to judge someone that gets an abortion, but it is for me to want to maintain the right to know my child is undergoing a major medical procedure.
All I can say, thank God I don't have girls!! |
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Scout
Queen of Imperfection
Joined: 20 Dec 2002
Posts: 3390
Location: home of the blues
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| Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 3:02 pm Post subject: OK, debate it here please |
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I understand the proposition. I see very little difference between requiring notification and requiring consent. How does the parent notification work? What's to say that the parent won't prevent the girl from getting the abortion once they have been notified? Plus, for many girls, just knowing the parents would have to be told would be a deal breaker. It's initimidation, IMO. And do both parents have to be notified, or just one. How many situations is that going to create where one parent is put in the position of having to keep the secret against the other (that's not really an argument against the proposition, more of an observation). To me it just seems like basically the same thing as requiring consent, even though it's being made to sound like it isn't.
Oh, and not having grils doesn't get you totally out of trouble. One of your boys may well bring home a scared, pregnant girlfriend with horrible parents one day, asking you for help. |
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Jessica
Queen of Imperfection
Joined: 20 Apr 2002
Posts: 4762
Location: Chi-town
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| Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 10:21 pm Post subject: OK, debate it here please |
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Oh, and one more thing...I don't think we should protect daughters from angry parents. Let them be disappointed, let them grieve and be angry. Let the children know that this is what an irresponsible decision leads to. The pro-choicers want everybody to believe that if a parent isn't throwing confetti over their child's abortion, then they will surely be bludgeoning them to death. This isn't the truth. Most parents will be hurt and angry and then will try to help their daughters. Getting an abortion as a minor is a big deal and eliminating the inconvenience of an upset parent is just shirking responsibility. Perhaps more children should be afraid of their parent's reaction, then they might think twice about having sex without protection or having sex at all.
Of course, everybody makes mistakes, but as a minor, you simply don't have the rights that adults have, otherwise we'd just have children and put them in an apartment and let them fend for themselves after they're born. It's ridiculous to even entertain.
Facing a disappointed parent, well if they're going to have sex and have an abortion, then it's the mature and responsible thing to do. Again, JMHO. |
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Sewingsiren
Celebrating Imperfection
Joined: 12 Nov 2004
Posts: 838
Location: the land of cotton
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| Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 10:38 am Post subject: Re: OK, debate it here please |
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| kathyjm wrote: |
I just pray for my daughters to have the self love and self esteem to wait until they are married (or at least adults) to have sex. If they dont', I PRAY they dont get pg. IF they do, I sure as heck hope they come to me so that I can help them. Lord knows the state isn't going to help me with this! |
Kathy, we are in complete agreement here. Even *supposing* my daughter in this situation is almost unbearable to me.
| kathyjm wrote: |
| OMG to know a Dr. performed surgery on my child without my knowledge would KILL Me. |
And here I feel the same way, too . I just don't see it as something that must be the law and I also think, that even if was the law it would not guarentee anything. |
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Sewingsiren
Celebrating Imperfection
Joined: 12 Nov 2004
Posts: 838
Location: the land of cotton
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| Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 10:41 am Post subject: Re: OK, debate it here please |
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| Princesso wrote: |
| I agree with you. It wasn't really an abortion issue. It was about parental rights. |
See, I do see it as specifically an abortion issue, precisely because it is very different from all other surgeries. |
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Sewingsiren
Celebrating Imperfection
Joined: 12 Nov 2004
Posts: 838
Location: the land of cotton
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| Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 10:48 am Post subject: Re: OK, debate it here please |
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| Scout wrote: |
| Oh, and not having grils doesn't get you totally out of trouble. One of your boys may well bring home a scared, pregnant girlfriend with horrible parents one day, asking you for help. |
Wow. That would be a difficult situation. In my state parental (one parent only) permission is required of a minor seeking an abortion. I would offer to go speak to the parent she felt most comfortable with and then let them decide what to do. But if they ask me to lie and say *I* was the parent (of the girl), I don't think I could do that. In a very desperate case I may try to find information on where they could go to have a legal abortion without parental consent. |
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Sewingsiren
Celebrating Imperfection
Joined: 12 Nov 2004
Posts: 838
Location: the land of cotton
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| Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 11:05 am Post subject: Re: OK, debate it here please |
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| Jessica wrote: |
| The pro-choicers want everybody to believe that if a parent isn't throwing confetti over their child's abortion, then they will surely be bludgeoning them to death. |
Come on Jessica, you know that isn't the case. No sane person would feel happy that their minor child became pregnant or got an abortion.
| Jessica wrote: |
| Most parents will be hurt and angry and then will try to help their daughters. Getting an abortion as a minor is a big deal and eliminating the inconvenience of an upset parent is just shirking responsibility. |
I don't see it a shirking responsiblity, I see it as taking the responsiblity to make a decision , just as they did when the decided to have sex.
| Jessica wrote: |
| Perhaps more children should be afraid of their parent's reaction, then they might think twice about having sex without protection or having sex at all. |
You would think so, but it never has worked, even before birth control or abortion were legal.
| Jessica wrote: |
| Of course everybody makes mistakes, but as a minor, you simply don't have the rights that adults have, otherwise we'd just have children and put them in an apartment and let them fend for themselves after they're born. It's ridiculous to even entertain. |
Yep, that is a ridiculous idea to entertain. Who thinks that???
| Jessica wrote: |
| Facing a disappointed parent, well if they're going to have sex and have an abortion, then it's the mature and responsible thing to do. Again, JMHO. |
I think that most girls do go to their parents, as for the ones that don't I don't think it is an entirely self serving reason, they are taking the responsiblity upon themselves for what they have done. Some I *know* are sparing their parents the pain of knowing. |
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Jessica
Queen of Imperfection
Joined: 20 Apr 2002
Posts: 4762
Location: Chi-town
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| Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 4:01 pm Post subject: Re: OK, debate it here please |
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| Sewingsiren wrote: |
| I think that most girls do go to their parents, as for the ones that don't I don't think it is an entirely self serving reason, they are taking the responsiblity upon themselves for what they have done. Some I *know* are sparing their parents the pain of knowing. |
See, you have me conflicted on this point only, because again, you do make a very rational argument for NOT forcing notification.
Now, in your state where one parent notification is required, I wonder what the underage abortion rates are compared to other states - NOT THAT THAT IS WHAT MY MOTIVE IS - to prevent young girls from having access to legal abortions. I'm more curious in if it motivates young people to be more diligent about protection, ya know? |
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Sewingsiren
Celebrating Imperfection
Joined: 12 Nov 2004
Posts: 838
Location: the land of cotton
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| Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 4:21 pm Post subject: Re: OK, debate it here please |
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| Jessica wrote: |
See, you have me conflicted on this point only, because again, you do make a very rational argument for NOT forcing notification.
Now, in your state where one parent notification is required, I wonder what the underage abortion rates are compared to other states - NOT THAT THAT IS WHAT MY MOTIVE IS - to prevent young girls from having access to legal abortions. I'm more curious in if it motivates young people to be more diligent about protection, ya know? |
I will see if I can obtain that info (about the stats). But most states do require either parental notification or permission. and saddly I don't think it effects the teen pregnancy rates. |
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prescott
Community Techie
Joined: 21 Apr 2002
Posts: 3347
Location: Outside your window
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| Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 7:29 pm Post subject: Re: OK, debate it here please |
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To me, with the elimination of "parental rights", you might as well throw out all laws relating to minors. If your child feels they are mature enough to drink, get married, have sex with a 25-year-old, or sign a contract, hey, then why not let them?
I don't really see how you can cherry pick which medical procedures require a parent's involvement and which do not, no matter how different they are. |
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