The Imperfect Community

[Scout]

What do you think of this article?

[Sewingsiren]

I think it's good to tell children they did a good job, if in fact they just did something note worthy. I'm lmao remembering a time when I did use this exact phase in a stupid way.

My nearly 3 year old daughter and my new born son were shopping at wal-mart, when dd announced that she had to go to the potty bad. We were about as for away from the public restroom as you can get. Well we all three made the diagonal dash to the toilet and manoeuver my way in the door shopping cart in tow. I get her in the stall, pants down, and her bottom over the pot, she releases a real loud fart and poops. So I say in a real cheerful voice " Good Job holding it, ______________!" and she replys without skipping a beat " And good job farting!" I just about laughed myself silly.
We weren't alone in the restroom either.

[Petulant Pixie]

I can see their underlying rationale. That in the Skinnerian behaviorist context, praise is used as a positive reinforcer. And it is, it's one of the biggest positive reinforcers there is for children. They're taking that one step further to imply that praise is therefore intrinsically a tool for behavior modification. And I'm not sure I think that logic is sound.

It's like if you wanted your child to stop squirming and sit at the table during meals, so you set up a behavior program to condition that (and here this is real conditioning). You decide to use a piece of candy as a positive reinforcer for the child sitting at the table. The child likes candy above all else, so the system works and you achieve the behavior you want.

Then is candy ALWAYS a positive reinforcer? In all situations? When the child receives candy for holidays is she confused, thinking she's being rewarded for something because candy was used in her conditioning for something else? When she's at the store, and her mom buys her candy, does she wonder what she did to deserve it because she still attaches candy as the reinforcer from before?

Die hard academic behaviorists would say yes. Once an item is used for behavior modification, unless counter-conditioning has been done to remove the attachment to the item, it will ALWAYS hold its "reward" status. There are horror stories like baby Albert who was conditioned to fear a white fuzzy stuffed animal as an infant (whenever it was present, people made loud noises and shit to scare the pants off of him), and then they never counter-conditioned him so supposedly the kid grew up afraid of ALL white fuzzy things, even clouds and lived a miserable, paranoid life. And this is the basis for much phobia study and treatment today.

So, these folks are saying that that's what's happening with praise. That it loses its "praise" because of its behavior modifying potential, leading to all sorts of possible mind-fuck. And, I just don't think that kind of logic is legit.

Furthermore, from what I've seen, there are still lots of members of our junior population who are rewarded more often with a smack aside the head or an insult than excessive praise. So, I think we need to keep it in context. I'd hate to see this article get in the wrong hands and have people believe they shouldn't praise thier kids.

[Scout]

Yeah, I think it's good to offer more specific praise when possibel, or to make some other type of acknowledging statement (e.g. "I DID see you slide down the big slide! Was it fun?" rather than "great job sliding, honey!") But I don't think this is the biggest psyche-scarring thing we need to worry about with our kids.

Kind of tangential, but especially to PP this might be interesting--did you see the recent article in the New Yorker about the bogus nature of many of the ailments described in the DSM? It was basically about how, in an attempt to be seen as legitimate medicine, the psych professions have attempted to turn every conceivable behavior into a disease or mental affliction. The argument was made that this is dangerous because it doesn't allow for a healthy range of human variations in emotion and behavior. It was pretty interesting and the feedback they got suggested that many people feel this way.

[MainstreamMom]

Hmmmmm that was an interesting read however I don't really buy it. I can see the rationale that praising for every single behavior (even behavior that does not warrant praise) isn't the best idea but I think saying "good job" when a job has been done well, is right on.

For example, yesterday we had a playdate and Jack behaved really well, played great with the other kids and for the most part, was polite and respectful to the host and other adults (and the kids too). This is an area we are working on so after we left I praised him in the car: "You did a great job at Mateo's house, Jack." "I'm really proud of the way you shared and you were so well behaved." This is huge for me because Jack really responds well and has a sense of pride when he's acknowledged for good behavior. Now, I would never think of saying that to him if I had to (like I've done on many occasions) speak to him and put him in timeouts at the playdate. I've also had to remove him from playdates before for bad behavior. So I would never tell him "good job" if he really didn't do a good job.

additionally, I don't tell him he did a "good job" if he's behaving well and not fighting with his sister. That sort of behavior is expected in my home so therefore is the norm, not something "extra" that needs to be rewarded. I will tell him "nice sharing" or "you're being a nice big brother" if he goes out of his way to share something with Amanda that I know he wants or covets.

I don't know. I think it's like anything else, too much of a good thing becomes ineffective. Use praise when your child goes above and beyond and the effort is there.

I know i found with potty training that when I told him that "mommy and daddy are so proud of you" he would often exclaim that after he used the toilet and he would beam. I just can't see that as a bad thing. I certainly don't praise him like that now that he's fully potty trained, it was just when he really tried and worked to succeed at something. Now it's just second nature to him.

[Petulant Pixie]

Chris, see your examples:

[honeybee]

I think I read this article, or something very similar to it, when I was still in the teacher credentialing program in school.

In some ways I agree with it, I think it's best for kids to do a task for their own satisfaction and be rewarded intrinsically, rather than do it for a 'treat' or the approval of others.

I do a lot of what Scout exampled, saying things like, "oh, you put your shoes on all by yourself! What a big boy you are becoming!" or "you picked up all your trucks and put them in the basket!", but at the same time I'm saying these things in a happy and excited tone, which clearly communicates that I'm pleased with what he's done. It basically is the same thing as just flat out saying "good job!". KWIM?

[MainstreamMom]

[Petulant Pixie]