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Now that's what I call bf-friendly!
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Jessica
Queen of Imperfection


Joined: 20 Apr 2002
Posts: 4808
Location: Chi-town

PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:50 am    Post subject: Re: Now that's what I call bf-friendly! Reply with quote

Petulant Pixie wrote:

I know, this is just anecdotal, but I don't consider my experience to be that limited. I was a social worker in Cleveland (where caucasians are the minority), and in Texas (with a high hispanic population), so I've been exposed to the indigent populations you're talking about and I just don't think that their reproductive habits can bear all the responsibility for our birth numbers, as you're suggesting.


LOL. No, I'm not suggesting. You are suggesting, since your evidence is purely anecdotal.

http://www.prb.org/Template.cfm?Section=PRB&template=/ContentManagement/ContentDisplay.cfm&ContentID=7981

http://www.prb.org/pdf/USFertilityRatesHigherAmongMinorities.pdf

Regardless, this wasn't meant as a slam against minorities. My original point was that there are a lot of things that I do that aren't biologically "le naturale", such as taking birth control pills and that this may be a socio-economic and/or sub-cultural thing. IOW, just because one culture does something one way, doesn't necessarly mean that American's must have it wrong. This relates to BFIP because our society, albeit hypocritical, is more modest than other countries. In Europe, nudity is on television. It's a societal norm that is simply different, IMO, not bad.

What I think is really interesting about this topic diversion is that "we" have become so PC as a society, that even simple facts become taboo. I think that's kinda sad. <shrugs>
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Petulant Pixie
Queen of Imperfection


Joined: 22 Apr 2002
Posts: 4140
Location: flyover country

PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 9:07 am    Post subject: Now that's what I call bf-friendly! Reply with quote

I stand corrected.
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Sewingsiren
Celebrating Imperfection


Joined: 12 Nov 2004
Posts: 838
Location: the land of cotton

PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 9:09 am    Post subject: Re: Now that's what I call bf-friendly! Reply with quote

Jessica wrote:
Sewingsiren wrote:
Jessica wrote:

The American fertility rate is mostly influenced by minorities and the poor, so I think it needs to be put in perspective. BC pills are probably most widely used by the middle class/upper middle class I would think...but I digress...
Shocked Damn the pesky poor and minorities fucking up the stats for real Americans??


I think it's so odd that you can't state a fact without anyone judging you. You obviously think I'm being racist or prejudice here, when I'm NOT. In my quick search on the net, these stats came up readily and they were from the census bureau.

If I said that less black women bf than white women, I suppose that would make me a racist even though it's true.

That is totally unfair and unjust but whatever...


Okay, okay, lets back up for a moment. Initially you stated (in regards to the bf pic) that countries like "that" often times did not use birth control either. To which I countered the fertility rates in the US (2.07) and Venezuela (2.31) are not dissimilar. You countered with the above statement "The American fertility rate is mostly influenced by minorities and the poor, so I think it needs to be put in perspective."

Jessica, I am not disputing who has the largest families in the US. But your statement seems to suggest to me that if you would remove the poor and minorities from the US stats on fertility you would get a more accurate picture of the "real" US fertility rates. Of course if you removed some groups of Americans from the stats you would get a different picture, but to get an accurate picture of American fertility rates you must include all Americans, no?
Don't you think that if you removed the same groups( the poor and minorities) from the Venezuelan stats on fertility you would get a lower fertility rate for Venezuela also?

As an aside the fertility rate in the US is not particularly high. It in fact reflects the average number of children for the regular posters on this micro-cosim, doesn't it?
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Scout
Queen of Imperfection


Joined: 20 Dec 2002
Posts: 3390
Location: home of the blues

PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 9:28 am    Post subject: Now that's what I call bf-friendly! Reply with quote

Well, I wasn't trying to start a solciological debate, lol.

As for the picture, even though it's a different culture, it's not a third-world culture. I do think we should be totally comfortable with women bf'ing wherever they happen to be, just like we are comfortable with them bottle feeding wherever they happen to be. I don't think anyone should be forced to bfip, but I find it odd that so many people think it's taboo.
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Jessica
Queen of Imperfection


Joined: 20 Apr 2002
Posts: 4808
Location: Chi-town

PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 9:39 am    Post subject: Now that's what I call bf-friendly! Reply with quote

Actually, Venezuela is considered a third world country.

http://www.nationsonline.org/oneworld/third_world.htm
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Petulant Pixie
Queen of Imperfection


Joined: 22 Apr 2002
Posts: 4140
Location: flyover country

PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 9:52 am    Post subject: Now that's what I call bf-friendly! Reply with quote

But, Jessica, did you read the definition? And then did you look at the link to the part that says:

Quote:
List of Least Developed Countries (LDCs)
The world's poorest countries, the real "Third World".


Those are the countries people mean when they talk about the "third world countries", certainly not China or N. and S. Korea (which are on the third world list you linked to).
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Jessica
Queen of Imperfection


Joined: 20 Apr 2002
Posts: 4808
Location: Chi-town

PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 10:00 am    Post subject: Re: Now that's what I call bf-friendly! Reply with quote

[quote="Jessica"]
Petulant Pixie wrote:
But, Jessica, did you read the definition? And then did you look at the link to the part that says:

Quote:
List of Least Developed Countries (LDCs)
The world's poorest countries, the real "Third World".


Those are the countries people mean when they talk about the "third world countries", certainly not China or N. and S. Korea (which are on the third world list you linked to).


I've never been to Korea, but I've been to China, and yeah, I would consider it a third world country. It is dirt poor. Poverty like I have never seen in my life actually and most of it is that way.

Regardless, I don't think Venezuela is socio-economically as developed as the U.S. (if socio-economic is the right word). My point is that it *is* a different culture. Sewingsiren is suggesting that there's little disparity or difference and I think there is!!

Now, I know that women in Europe bfip, but those are different cultures for different reasons. Cultural norms are very complex and vary drastically for different reasons.
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Rebecca_R
Queen of Imperfection


Joined: 28 Apr 2002
Posts: 2668
Location: Phoenix, Arizona

PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 10:09 am    Post subject: Now that's what I call bf-friendly! Reply with quote

I've never been to Korea, but I've been to China, and yeah, I would consider it a third world country. It is dirt poor. Poverty like I have never seen in my life actually and most of it is that way.

Didn't look at the list you were talking about. But yea, S. Korea is as much of a third world country as say, NYC. Wink
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Jessica
Queen of Imperfection


Joined: 20 Apr 2002
Posts: 4808
Location: Chi-town

PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 10:19 am    Post subject: Re: Now that's what I call bf-friendly! Reply with quote

Rebecca_R wrote:
I've never been to Korea, but I've been to China, and yeah, I would consider it a third world country. It is dirt poor. Poverty like I have never seen in my life actually and most of it is that way.

Didn't look at the list you were talking about. But yea, S. Korea is as much of a third world country as say, NYC. Wink


NYC isn't a country, but I get what you're saying, however, you don't have to be Ethopia to be a "third world country", there has to be some reason they're on the list...I mean, I don't know...I didn't make up the list!!


Last edited by Jessica on Tue Feb 15, 2005 10:22 am; edited 1 time in total
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Sewingsiren
Celebrating Imperfection


Joined: 12 Nov 2004
Posts: 838
Location: the land of cotton

PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 10:21 am    Post subject: Re: Now that's what I call bf-friendly! Reply with quote

Jessica wrote:


Regardless, I don't think Venezuela is socio-economically as developed as the U.S. (if socio-economic is the right word). My point is that it *is* a different culture. Sewingsiren is suggesting that there's little disparity or difference and I think there is!!



Now I bloody well did NOT say that.
I compared the fertility rates of the two countries and said that they were similar, and the ARE.
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Scout
Queen of Imperfection


Joined: 20 Dec 2002
Posts: 3390
Location: home of the blues

PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 10:23 am    Post subject: Now that's what I call bf-friendly! Reply with quote

Look at the way th woman and baby are dressed, though. They look like they just came from Old Navy. I think when most of us say "Third World," this photo does not portray that image.

But ok, let's go with the fact that it's a different culture, which it obviously is. Why is that an argument that this photo has no bearing on our own culture? IMO, that would be like a southerner saying something like "Ok, well maybe they are more open to diversity up north, but that's a different culture." Just because it's a different culture doesn't mean it's not relatable to our own, or that we can't see that parts of it bear emulating. What it boils down to is that you would never see our president, or just about any man in any position of power or authority, comfortably chatting with a woman while she was openly nursing her baby. Even discreetly nursing would be a stretch. And personally, I just think that's silly.
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Jessica
Queen of Imperfection


Joined: 20 Apr 2002
Posts: 4808
Location: Chi-town

PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 10:24 am    Post subject: Re: Now that's what I call bf-friendly! Reply with quote

Sewingsiren wrote:
Jessica wrote:


Regardless, I don't think Venezuela is socio-economically as developed as the U.S. (if socio-economic is the right word). My point is that it *is* a different culture. Sewingsiren is suggesting that there's little disparity or difference and I think there is!!



Now I bloody well did NOT say that.
I compared the fertility rates of the two countries and said that they were similar, and the ARE.


I didn't say you said that, it is what I thought your implication was. If I was wrong, I apologize. In my saying, 'countries like that', and you refuting that, I wasn't aware that you were *only* talking about fertility rates since you qualified it with remarks about their sophistication.
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Sewingsiren
Celebrating Imperfection


Joined: 12 Nov 2004
Posts: 838
Location: the land of cotton

PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 10:28 am    Post subject: Now that's what I call bf-friendly! Reply with quote

China and N. Korea are on the 2nd world list too. So the list is a little bit fucked up.
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Jessica
Queen of Imperfection


Joined: 20 Apr 2002
Posts: 4808
Location: Chi-town

PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 10:28 am    Post subject: Re: Now that's what I call bf-friendly! Reply with quote

Scout wrote:
What it boils down to is that you would never see our president, or just about any man in any position of power or authority, comfortably chatting with a woman while she was openly nursing her baby. Even discreetly nursing would be a stretch. And personally, I just think that's silly.


Because we *are* a different culture. I'm not trying to justify it, I'm just stating a fact. Many things would have to change for that situation to happen over here as an everyday thing. It's rather deep why these cultural differences are present. America would have to change it's whole way of thinking about breasts, that's what it boils down to.
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Sewingsiren
Celebrating Imperfection


Joined: 12 Nov 2004
Posts: 838
Location: the land of cotton

PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 10:52 am    Post subject: Now that's what I call bf-friendly! Reply with quote

And then there is this from the same weblink:

The First, the Second and the Third World
A rough, and its safe to say, outdated model of the geopolitical world from the time of the cold war. The is no official defination of the first, second, and third world . Following OWNO's explanation of the terms.

The Italics are mine.
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