The Imperfect Community

Rebecca_R

My parents live near Ft. Huachuca (where they both work). I am down here this weekend visiting because my dad finally came back last week! Anyway, it is like the MI AIT hub of the army. So, a pretty important military base to say the least! Tomorrow my dad told me the front gate is being closed down for demonstrations. I'm like "what?! are they stupid? Why are they doing this?" He says "to protest the war."

Okay, I can understand protesting the war, you all know how I feel about these issues. But to me, having them close down the front gate, and staging a protest there would be like closing down the entrance to a school (where the kids need to get in) because you are upset with the principle. Am I right? Or wrong?

See, this is going to send the completely wrong message. Soldiers are going to be inconvenienced, people are going to see this and think they are against the troups. (and if they are they are completely fucked up, but I get the feeling that's not what this is about) Why can't they go to the state capitol, or a government building somewhere. Why do this at a military base?

It just rubs me the wrong way, because I think it is doing nothing for the anti-war movement to send the wrong message to our troops. And even if it's the message they are not trying to send, they will be sending it anyway.

THoughts?

Jessica

Well, I completely agree and if I can go on with a further rant here and totally take this in another direction (sorry Becky), I think it's also shitty that Michael Moore is using our dead soldiers for his political and social gains, when these soldiers probably can't stand him. Also, in regards to that kid that shot that insurgent who was faking being dead, I also think that many American's are turning on him. I don't know if he made the exact right decision or not, but I know SO MANY people from other political forums that want this to be a CRIMINAL investigation. What message does that send to our soldiers?? The more this goes on, the more I see this war and it's protesters emulating the behavior of Vietnam, where our soldiers are fucked over and treated like shit. It's not their fault people. These are GOOD people.

Whether it's the left doing this or not, or regardless of their ultimate intentions, I think it makes people more divisive and more backlash will ensue. They have every right to protest, but they can't expect that their message will be well recv'd, that's everybody elses right to make that determination.

End rant.

Rebecca_R

Whether it's the left doing this or not, or regardless of their ultimate intentions, I think it makes people more divisive and more backlash will ensue.

Well, with all due respect, I didn't want this thread to be about whether it's the left doing it or not and all the things they are doing wrong. Sure, these people who are protesting at the military base are most likely left wing democrats, I'll give ya that! But I can start a whole new thread on the right wing republicans and their faults. Wink

The blame on the divide does not lie solely with the democrats.

[/b]They have every right to protest, but they can't expect that their message will be well recv'd, that's everybody elses right to make that determination. [/b]

In this town, it's not going to be well received. That's why I wish they would move it on over to the capitol building or something. I think people are most likely frustrated. This community has lost a lot of young guys and they feel like they have to do something. *I'm* frustrated because I think they are standing up for a good cause, but I just wish they would find a different place for the outlet of their frustration.

And you brought up the Vietnam attitude. I wasn't alive then, but I do have this hippie aunt that lives up in the hills of N. Cali. My father joined the army during Vietnam, but he was actually sent to Korea instead. This woman protested the war and protested the soldiers. I'll never understand that kind of utter stupidity! I can understand protesting the war, though. But she really has lost it. She and her boyfriend (that doesn't sound like a correct start to a sentence?) are the ones that say stupid things like "if only the people on 9-11 weren't working for dirty corporations, they should have known they'd get killed" and REALLY STUPID shit like that. I cannot stand that attitude. We should protest them! Laughing

Rebecca_R

Also, in regards to that kid that shot that insurgent who was faking being dead, I also think that many American's are turning on him. I don't know if he made the exact right decision or not, but I know SO MANY people from other political forums that want this to be a CRIMINAL investigation. What message does that send to our soldiers??

I haven't heard this story yet. I spent the past few days closed off to the tv and haven't checked any websites. Can you send me a link?

Gee, my first thought when I hear you say this is there has got to be psychological implications to a young soldier being in Falluja! I mean, there is a psychological impact to basic training, so can you imagine what those guys are going through?!

I really feel for those guys. On one hand, I think the military can be a great experience. A chance for people to get a good education, job experience, etc etc. But I think situations like this also have the potential to really fuck people up. But I am completely, anti-war. I think war fucks people up on both sides.

Scout

I agree that the whole idea of protesting at the base is probably not a good idea.

I am thankful to the men and women who are sacrificing normalcy and their daily lives, and sometimes their actual lives, but I am pissed that they are being asked to do it for this war.

As far as the soldier who shot an unarmed prisoner when he was obviously powerless to harm anyone and was not posing a threat, I think that his actions need to be severeely scrutinized and most likely punished. Being an armed American soldier does not give you the right to kill people just because you feel like it. It did suck what happened after Vietnam, but you can't say some of our soldiers didn't intentionally kill and harm innocent people over there. They did it then and there are obviously some who are doing it now. If we are going to send troops into these hellish situations, there needs to be more training on dealing with the stress and especially on what is and is not appropriate or acceptable treatment of POWs. I think it's wrong to act like soldiers can do no wrong or that they are above scrutiny just because of their job. That is a very dangerous attitude to have, and it's how people end up living in police states.

Jessica

Petulant Pixie

Jessica

Jessica

Oh, and another thing, I'm not sure if Bush thought this war would be *popular* and I don't think he's doing it for himself. I honestly think he's doing it for the greater good of the middle east and strategically implementing a democracy over a totalitarian government so that with freedom will come peace, or at least that's the goal.

The insurgents don't want the sympathy of the left. That's laughable. They would hate you, just as soon behead you simply because you're Catholic and American, and there-for an infadel (sp?). They just want to kill anyone who's not muslim. I mean, what did those Russian children do to them? I just don't think the left understands who the good guys are and who the bad guys are. But that's a big difference between the two parties, whether you agree w/ it or not, is that the right believes in good and evil and the left is more about economic differences -- poor vs. the wealthy.

Sewingsiren

colby · Seen Better Days Joined: 12 Sep 2003 Posts: 340

I don't know if I even want to get in on this, but one thing you said Jessica - just rings hollow. The fact of the matter is that there are mostly good people in the military. And there are also some bad apples. As for this young man, I hadn't heard that his friend had gotten attacked by someone that was pretending to be dead. I don't know. This particular action was harmful to our persona over there, because Al Jazeera continually shows it on a loop. (Ironic that they won't even show the poor woman from CARE being blown away by the insurgents, as it might be inflammatory). At any rate. This particular soldier's actions may or may not be justified. That will have to be decided by either a court martial or his superiors. The only person that I have seen (I haven't seen any 'left' people saying shit about this, but maybe you have), anyway, the only person that I HAVE heard saying anything was an active duty General on NPR discussing this type of action. He was saying that there was a code, and a manner in which his soldiers acted that this particular soldier did not appear to have followed. I mean, some of the soliders are mad for the simple fact that this type of action does make their peacekeeping part of the mission more difficult.
IF he did something criminal, his mindset, whether it was self-defense, will all have to be taken in to consideration, then he should be prosecuted. That is what the General said. Simple blanket support is not helpful to anyone. Some people are going to do things wrong, and do things horribly wrong in some instances (Abu Gharib). Those people should be dealt with by the military, and in the military fashion.
I personally agree that most are doing the best that they can, and most are doing it right and correct. But, I won't support torture of other people (as in Abu Gharib) simply because the soldiers are young or undereducated. That's going too far the other direction. There is a happy medium. As for this particular soldier, I'll wait to see what actions are taken against him. Either way, whether he is found not culpable - there must have been reasons, or whether he is found culpable, then that means the military thinks his actions are wrong, and who are we to disagree. I'll wait until they decide his fate.

Jessica

Colby, it is not a blanket support, well, in a way it kinda is because I do think these are really brave and honorable people for the most part, just because there will continually be a few bad apples, does not mean I will not support our military on a whole.

As far as the young man that killed the enemy combatant, while he was faking being dead, I've also seen the tape many times, and I'm not going to pretend to know what I'd do in that situation. One of the military, higher ranking officers that is in charge of investigating these things, was on Fox news and he said that even though it's hard to imagine, because it was "caught on tape" that you can't take that for granted to paint a full picture. It was only a snippet and even though it's literal, it's out of context.

I just see so many liberals, on my political boards, jumping to the conclusion that this man should be criminally prosecuted. It pisses me off. Nobody has proof that this kid wasn't simply doing his job or protecting himself. It's like they *want* him to be the bad guy so that they can say American's are killing innocent people, even though this insurgent was far from innocent. So many of the bodies are booby trapped and there are several instances where insurgents were faking death and then pulled out a granade or bomb. War is a dirty business.

Oh, and BTW, I think that Irish lady from CARE was actually beheading and Al Jazeera has become a terrorist network, so I don't find anything they do to be relevant in how our military should manage their operations.

kathyjm

I"m so irritated with that whole issue. People are kidnapped regularly and killed. why does this ONE action get more press than the kidnapping/killings?? I think the reporter who released this is completely IRRESPONSIBLE! that tape SHOULD have been handed over to the proper US authorities to investigate, NOT Al Jazeera for crying out loud.

It's not like an innocent iraqi was killed, he was a wounded INSURGENT! I would wager that if he lived, he'd just walk out of there and blow himself up anyway and kill more innocent people!

This war is not only about creating a free Iraq, it's also a war against terror and terrorists are flocking there. I feel sorry for the iraqi's. There's also a lot of good being accomplished in Iraq. Why oh why does the press only want to talk about the bad stuff that's happening?? They're basically giving the terrorists what they want...recognition.

Jessica

Scout

Jessica, I just don't see that anyone here is trying to "shit on" our soldiers. I am well aware that the situations they face are horrendous and that it's impossible to say what you would do in those situations. I know you think I'm a big pacifist hippie, but honestly, I'm not completely about the non-violence. My city just ranked the 4th most dangerous large city in the country for rape, murder, assault, and aggravated robbery. I can honestly tell you that if it were not dangerous to my children, I would not only have a gun, I would wear it on my body, and I can assure you I would not hesitate to use it to protect myself or my family. I understand there is a time to kill or be killed. When dh bought his business, I insisted he get a gun to protect himself if necessary.

All I'm saying is that it's dangerous to just say "all is fair in war" and give soldiers free reign to do whatever they want. I hope you're right and that this soldier was justified in what he did. It looked to me like the guy was sleeping (I thought it was a prisoner situation, in which case he would have been checked for bombs or weapons) and got shot. I think at the very least, these incidents have to be investigated.