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The stem cell issue
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Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Imperfect Community Forum Index -> Abortion/Stem Cell Research
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prescott
Community Techie


Joined: 21 Apr 2002
Posts: 3347
Location: Outside your window
PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 11:11 am    Post subject: Re: The stem cell issue Reply with quote
Jessica wrote:
Why should one individuals opinions be more important than the next??


Because one is based on proven science, and the other on blind faith?

Shit, I knew I should have stayed out of this.
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Jessica
Queen of Imperfection


Joined: 20 Apr 2002
Posts: 4760
Location: Chi-town
PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 11:14 am    Post subject: Re: The stem cell issue Reply with quote
prescott wrote:
Jessica wrote:
Why should one individuals opinions be more important than the next??


Because one is based on proven science, and the other on blind faith?

Shit, I knew I should have stayed out of this.


So, what do you suggest?? We leave morals completely out of this? So, why don't we just allow women to donate their unwanted children to science so that we can experiment on them?

A society without any moral code is a society without science anyway.
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prescott
Community Techie


Joined: 21 Apr 2002
Posts: 3347
Location: Outside your window
PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 11:15 am    Post subject: Re: The stem cell issue Reply with quote
Petulant Pixie wrote:
My husband is a senior research and discovery scientist for a well-known pharmaceutical company. He signed confidentiality restrictions so certainly no specific information is shared with me, but yes, I do have a pretty good understanding of the process that new drugs go through from the drawing board to the market and beyond.


LOL, are you going to share your comment about how the best and brightest scientists stay in academia? Wink
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Petulant Pixie
Queen of Imperfection


Joined: 22 Apr 2002
Posts: 4140
Location: flyover country
PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 11:19 am    Post subject: The stem cell issue Reply with quote
Quote:
LOL, are you going to share your comment about how the best and brightest scientists stay in academia?


Honestly, Scott, who do you think I got that opinion from? Laughing Do you think I could go down a list of scientists and identify who is a genius in his field and who is a quack loser? That the geniuses in science remain in academia is the opinion of my husband and his (corporately employed "sell out" peers). Laughing
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Petulant Pixie
Queen of Imperfection


Joined: 22 Apr 2002
Posts: 4140
Location: flyover country
PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 11:22 am    Post subject: The stem cell issue Reply with quote
Quote:
So, what do you suggest?? We leave morals completely out of this?


I think the society at large needs to identify the moral boundaries. And, personally, I think that each society needs to look at global standards for their morals and ethics, so what is considered moral by one society and deemed immoral by the rest of the world is not OK.
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Jessica
Queen of Imperfection


Joined: 20 Apr 2002
Posts: 4760
Location: Chi-town
PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 11:28 am    Post subject: Re: The stem cell issue Reply with quote
Petulant Pixie wrote:
Quote:
So, what do you suggest?? We leave morals completely out of this?


I think the society at large needs to identify the moral boundaries. And, personally, I think that each society needs to look at global standards for their morals and ethics, so what is considered moral by one society and deemed immoral by the rest of the world is not OK.


There are no global standards. Your suggestion makes no sense. Who specifically sets the standards? I don't get it...Americans? In some parts of the world, female circumcision is okay, in other parts, you must pray like 15 times a day or go to hell. World law, world order? That's more Bush-like, than Bush himself.
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Petulant Pixie
Queen of Imperfection


Joined: 22 Apr 2002
Posts: 4140
Location: flyover country
PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 11:45 am    Post subject: The stem cell issue Reply with quote
Quote:
There are no global standards. Your suggestion makes no sense. Who specifically sets the standards?


I believe that people could come together to reach agreements about these things. We're human beings, we can reach agreements about what is morally acceptable on a large scale.
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Jessica
Queen of Imperfection


Joined: 20 Apr 2002
Posts: 4760
Location: Chi-town
PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 12:15 pm    Post subject: Re: The stem cell issue Reply with quote
Petulant Pixie wrote:
Quote:
There are no global standards. Your suggestion makes no sense. Who specifically sets the standards?


I believe that people could come together to reach agreements about these things. We're human beings, we can reach agreements about what is morally acceptable on a large scale.


If that were true, there would be no animosity in the world, no wars or civil wars. Our own country can't reach agreements for crying out loud. There has been violence and unrest in the middle east for thousands of years, but you think it's so simple that we can just come together and reach a peaceful conclusion? I certainly won't live my life according to those unrealistic dreams. I'm realistically more concerned about the laws and policies of our country right now, in the way that it relates to things I can have an influence or voice in.
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Petulant Pixie
Queen of Imperfection


Joined: 22 Apr 2002
Posts: 4140
Location: flyover country
PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 12:48 pm    Post subject: The stem cell issue Reply with quote
Quote:
If we allow this, and let's say in 100 years there does become a need for more stem cells, how will we get them?? If embroynic stem cells wind up fulfilling a need, there will not be enough of those wanting to donate, so what's next?

With or without God, I can see a lot of corruption to this and many psychological warfare and phsyiological warfare that ends life as we know it. (Okay, very dramatic, but ya'all get the point.)


Yes, and I think it would make a good screenplay for a Denzel Washington movie.

Really, we have a need for organs and blood, but so far we've been able to use that technology within ethical boundaries. We haven't started importing children from third world countries to harvest their organs, or keeping retarded people in so-called "group homes" alive only to draw their blood in maximum volume. I don't think that it's a pandoras box, unleashing uncontrollable evil upon the earth.

As far as a global ethics committe, I think it could happen if people were willing to try.
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prescott
Community Techie


Joined: 21 Apr 2002
Posts: 3347
Location: Outside your window
PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 12:54 pm    Post subject: Re: The stem cell issue Reply with quote
Petulant Pixie wrote:
We haven't started importing children from third world countries to harvest their organs, or keeping retarded people in so-called "group homes" alive only to draw their blood in maximum volume.


Or so the government would have you BELIEVE...
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colby
Seen Better Days


Joined: 12 Sep 2003
Posts: 340
PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 2:24 pm    Post subject: The stem cell issue Reply with quote
Quote:
Or so the government would have you BELIEVE...


*Cue the creepy music* Dum dum duh!!
Laughing

I don't claim to be an expert in this area, but it seems to me that if these embryos are going to go to waste or be thrown out anyway...and how come no one cares if they are thrown out, only if they are used for something else?...then we should use them for some good. Maybe that is 'God's plan' to make use of these cells that are in existance that otherwise would just go to waste. Maybe whoever 1st thought of 'stem cells' had the idea implanted by God because God was sad that cells were being wasted. Who knows. I don't think anyone but Pat Roberts and Bush have a direct link with God's voice, and even they are getting conflicting information.

I don't think that these fears are invalid, but they are somewhat exaggerated in terms of what is likely to happen. People of science come in all flavors. You have those that would stop and consider the morality of a choice (probably 99%), and those that will press ahead to see what can be done no matter what. But those types are always the loonies like Dr. Moreau or Dr. Frankenstein. They're more myth than reality.
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kathyjm
Noticably Flawed


Joined: 17 Sep 2003
Posts: 702
Location: California
PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 5:11 pm    Post subject: The stem cell issue Reply with quote
" 'As as Christian, I do believe we are living God's will. I believe we are all blessed...sometimes those blessings are good blessings, and sometimes they're blessing that are difficult to understand but in the end they are part of God's plan and that's something that I accept. I don't believe that we will ever cure everything that afflicts us. If it's part of the Lords will to find cures, we will (and have for some things). '



I'm sorry, Kathy, but that makes no sense. God gave us the intelligence to do research and come up with cures for things. If God wills us to come up with cures, then WE have to do the work to find them."

*sorry, I haven't figure out how to quote just part of a post with the quote button!*

And I agree with you...I don't think I iinsinuatedthat we should NOT research...that was a further post to explain a small snippet in a prior post to make sure I was articulating myself accurately (which evidentally I still am not).

ITA. I don't think God hands out diseases for us to learn from and cope with as part of daily life. I am one of those people that thinks "shit happens". I am not going to buy into the idea that God gave my mom reoccurring cancer in order for her to learn and grow. People get cancer. People get all sorts of diseases that, IMO, have nothing to do with God

Well, again you guys are ignoring the rest of my entire post and attaching to that one snippet... so since you want to debate this instead of stem cell research, OK, I'm game... I feel enough Christians don't speak up anyway Smile

As a Christian I have to have faith in my beliefs. Part of that is understanding that the Lord does have a plan for each of us (and part of his plan for some of us is to find cures for things like cancer). However, we are living Gods will. Right now, today, there is no cure for cancer. In some way, that must be God's will. I have to trust that, otherwise I can't call myself a Christian. I am able to trust in that because I do believe that life does not end once we die. death is a beginning for us. because I wholeheartedly believe that (as did my wonderfully successfull grandfather who was a successful microbiologist well known in his field) diseases (or even accidents) are not THAT scary to me. Was I devastated when my 12 year old cousin died of cancer? YES. Was I devastated when my grandmother died of cancer at a relatively young age, YES! Do I wish I didn't have a degenerative hearing disease...YES! Do i wish my sweet, smart, funny, loving daughter was not different from the rest of us because of some thing wrong with her brain?? YES! But, because of my faith, It's a little easier to swallow. I hope we find cures for all these things, I pray for it, I believe in science (i just believe that God gives us the wisdom and science, He's the greatest scientist ever)...I was only saying as a small part of my post that in the end what will happen is God's will and Kerry wont have a thing to do with it (like he tries to say)...

I'm also very much on the same page with Jessica. Where is the line drawn? At what point are we trying to play God? to truly be able to say I am Christian...I have to ask those questions, because in the end, Morality DOES matter.

At this point, adult stem cells are showing promise. embryonic stem cells are just a speculation... the only reason we're even debating this is because Kerry is taking this issue and feeding on YOUR fears! that's my beef with this issue...
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Elizabeth
Noticably Flawed


Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 641
Location: East of Chicago, West of NYC
PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 5:47 pm    Post subject: The stem cell issue Reply with quote
Quote:
At this point, adult stem cells are showing promise. embryonic stem cells are just a speculation... the only reason we're even debating this is because Kerry is taking this issue and feeding on YOUR fears! that's my beef with this issue...


Where are you getting this information?? Please don't say the government, because the government is (of course) going to argue along the president's lines. Frankly, what you're saying sounds like it's coming right from Rush Limbaugh.

Kerry isn't playing on my fears. But what he is saying resonates deeply with me -- that I want a president who believes in science, who is "reality-based" and looks at the evidence before making decisions.

This is what Kerry says, directly:
http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/health_care/stemcell.html
I see no fearmongering in it.
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kathyjm
Noticably Flawed


Joined: 17 Sep 2003
Posts: 702
Location: California
PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 6:02 pm    Post subject: The stem cell issue Reply with quote
well, I dont listen to rush limbaugh, all I know about rush limbaugh is he had a problem with prescription drug addiction.. :-)

OK, I've gone and done a search and I have made a mistake, it was not Kerry who said this, it was his running mate, the whole quote about people like christopher reeves walking again... I'm sure you guys know about that... In my brain I equated that with kerry (though they are running mates).

I dont have time right now to look up the quotes but for kerry to even bring stem cell research into his campaign irritates me. It appears to people that it's just stem cell research... they dont differentiate between the three, or explain that there IS already research or even explain that to date, embryonic stem cells have NO value but that adult stem cells do... He makes it sound as if you vote for him we will find cures...well that's just not the case... plus, the amount of money he says he'll earmark for that..well, I'd rather see that money go somewhere more useful, more promising... maybe that's why the private sector HASNT attacked the embryonic stem cell research issue...because if it would be profitable, wouldn't they be all over that?? (this is me asking the questions honestly).
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prescott
Community Techie


Joined: 21 Apr 2002
Posts: 3347
Location: Outside your window
PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 8:47 pm    Post subject: Re: The stem cell issue Reply with quote
Elizabeth wrote:
Kerry isn't playing on my fears. But what he is saying resonates deeply with me -- that I want a president who believes in science, who is "reality-based" and looks at the evidence before making decisions.


Well, I would say Kerry looks at the *polls* before making decisions, but that's just me. Laughing
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