The Imperfect Community

Jessica · Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2004 1:32 pm Post subject: Is it or isn't it?

Okay, so here's the deal:

Holden has always been a high energy kid, right? If you asked Scott and I about his behavior or level of energy, you might get two different answers however. Scott knows that he is an active boy, he just doesn't think he's *overly* active, KWIM? I have always thought Holden was going to send me to the looney bin. As a baby, he was very sensitive to new places and often preferred to stay at home. As a toddler, it was more like having a puppy than a human. Scott and I would take turns taking him for 'walks'. I had it worked out in my mind how much exercise/activity he would need in a given day and work my days around that. He was in constant motion and needed constant stimulation. Some days I thought I'd collapse from exhaustion and this is a big reason why I waited so long in between children.

In preschool, it was always him, and maybe one or two other children, that always got in trouble. Either Holden wasn't listening or he was running off or he was crying over something that wasn't fair. I had asked the teachers if they thought there was an issue, like possibly ADHD or something and they said they would never dream of making that diagnosis at this early of a stage. They did confirm that he was on the high side of active, but they said a few other boys were exactly like him. They advised me to wait until Kindergarten and see how he acted there. They always told me that he was extremely social and that other kids loved him, but he just had issues listening to them. All in all, he did really well there though and they had a talent for keeping him on task.

So, then I get pregnant with Graham? We moved shortly after I got pregnant and then when I had Graham, of course Holden went through his jealousy phase. I put him in a home daycare where there were other kids his age, so that he wasn't stuck at the house all day with me and a boring newborn. So luck would have it that the daycare provider happens to teach classes at the Park District called "MetaKids". She has specializes in holistic approaches to ADHD and her classes are about learning how to focus through music and productive play, geared towards children with ADD. Anyway, it took her all but 3 days to ask me if anybody has ever asked me if Holden had ADHD. I told her no, but that I knew he was extremely active. She told me that she hadn't had good luck with the school Holden was going to go to (in the coming fall) and that they'd probably want to put him on medication because they had no patience. Again, she said everybody really liked him and that Holden was more focused on being a social butterfly than anything else.

So now, he goes into Kindergarten, and I am apprehensive anyway because he just meets the cut-off, but because he is so big and already been to preschool, I decide to go ahead with Kindergarten.

During a checkup for Graham over the summer (pre-Kindergarten), the doctor notices that Holden is crazy busy and buzzing around while she is trying to talk to me and he's constantly interrupting. She asks me if he's every been "tested". She asks if anyone's ever suggested he had ADHD and I said yes, but that he's never been tested and I don't feel he fits that diagnosis anyway. I ask her if she thinks he has it and she says she doesn't know. I ask her if should hold him back from Kindergarten and she says that he obviously needs the stimulation, to go ahead and put him in.

During the course of the year, he got in "trouble" a lot. The teacher is an older lady who is retiring next year and who acts like she's completely over this teaching job already. The class Holden is in has 28 kids, 19 of whom are BOYS! (Are they nuts?) Apparently, they accommodated all working parents requests for AM or PM Kindergarten and did not even out the gender ratios. Holden was constantly getting a yellow card, a blue card, a red card - mostly for small infractions like talking, but the point is, he was starting to have self-esteem issues because his teacher never cut him a break. No second chances, just bad card after bad card.

During the first parent/teacher conference, she tells Scott that if they were still testing for Kindergarten (funding issues eliminated that), she would have never allowed him into Kindergarten. I got a few calls throughout the year, when he interrupted more than twice or once when he hit a girl on the bus because she never lets him sit by the window. (I know this little girl and she is a bossy, precocious princess that narks on everyone. Not that I'm condoning it, but honestly, in the back of my mind I was thinking that she probably deserved it. She played a lot of tricks on Holden in the past and I think he was fed up.) Also, the bus driver was always ragging on him and our babysitter because he never stayed sitting.

When his teacher called about the hitting incident, I asked what this girl did and the teacher said I was missing the point. I said, "Of course. It's inappropriate and will be dealt with accordingly, but I was just curious if he did it out of the blue, for no reason at all or if he was angry." It doesn't make it right, but at least I would know how to advise him if it happened again. The teacher totally didn't get it.

Anyway, I don't think Mrs. McIntrye liked Holden. In fact, I don't think she likes boys in general. My step-mother volunteers in the classroom once a month and says the has no control over the class, is harsh to the boys and is totally stressed out.

His reports cards always come to us, showing him at or slightly below grade level. So, I decide to hire a tutor for the summer, she comes 2x a week and is a former 1st grade teacher and she adores Holden. When I called Mrs. McIntyre to request an "expectations" list for academic achievement for Kindergartners and 1st graders, so that the tutor can work on relevant studies, she leaves me a message to call her. I call her a few weeks ago and she tells me that she is not passing Holden. She said that he understands and knows all the fundamentals in math and with his letters, but he doesn't connect word sounds to make words. I was surprised. I was given no reason to believe she would want to hold Holden back. Then she proceeds to ask me if he's ever been diagnosed with ADHD and tells me that had he been medicated, it would have probably been a different outcome!

Now Scott's belief is that ADHD is a catch phrase for active and normal boys and that it is overly diagnosed and that he doesn't really have the symptoms of true ADHD anyway. We try to tweak his diet, with little success. We only give him goat's milk, cut out caffiene and give him supplements etc. So, I go to the doctor again, get a different doctor and ask her if ADHD is a possibility. She observes us for an hour and interviews me. When we are done, she says that 95% of the parents she refers to their on staff child psychologist because it's usually an issue of parenting skills or lack there of.

She said the child psychologist helps parents come to terms with the fact that they have have no skills in setting boundaries or utilizing appropriate discipline, and that they really need to learn how is to control their kids (basically). She then goes on to say that that is clearly not the case here, with Holden and his mom and dad. She said she thinks he has it because he is such an incredibly sweet boy and in observing the way I was giving him directives and corrections and seeing how he responded, with bright eyes and intentions of wanting to do what was right, but that he just couldn't help himself. For example, I asked him 5 times, not to touch the blood pressure tool and he kept doing it, kept doing it. You could see that he'd go to do it, think again, but that he just couldn't help himself. But, is this really ADHD???

I told her how he did homework slowly, unless there was something for him to do that was more fun and the he'd do it at lightening speed and it would all be correct too. She said that ADHD is more about being able to do things that aren't fun. Being able to do things that are boring and being able to control your impulses. She said that unfortunately, children are expected to be well behaved in school and not interrupt and not get out of their seats and she recommended medication so that he wouldn't flunk out of elementary school. She said that it was our call, and asked us to think about it.

Scott and I discussed it. If we were to move forward, we would have to get one more evaluation from a physician there who specializes in treating ADHD. We have not started that final process yet. We are still not convinced he has it and I should know. I had ADHD as a young child and my mother never medicated me. I had to learn my own coping techniques, but I did it and I made through college even. I see a lot of similarities with Holden, but I'm not so sure I want to put him on medication either, nor do I think he is behind as much academically as I was.

We have decided to take the "wait and see" approach and see how he does in first grade. We have decided to move him forward because I was held back in Kindergarten and I still have resentment over it. Here's a little boy [olden] with self-confidence issues and is fully aware that he's *supposed* to go on to 1st grade. Besides that, I worry that he will be bored. I missed so much school the second time around, in Kindergarten, that a truant officer came to our house. I was so bored outta my mind and I don't want that to happen to Holden. That is the worst feeling in the world. I think I was bored until I got into college, that's how much it affected me. I have never studied for a test in my life. I did the minimal amount to scrape by with B's and C's because I hated school so much. In college, I would ask the professors what the minimum amount of work was that I had to do in order to pass and I usually did it the first two weeks so I didn't have to go again. This has been my life. I graduated with a 3.5 GPA without going to 70% of my classes.

Anyway, the doctor agreed that we should allow him to go onto 1st grade because her belief was that he wasn't getting the word sounds together and forming words because that took a lot of concentration and it had nothing to do with his maturity or intelligence. She said if we held him back, we would just have this problem again next year or the year after.

He seems to be doing really well with the tutor and progressing at a rate that would indicate moving him to 1st grade as well.

So, my question is, what do you think about medicating children for behavior or for high energy levels that aren't constand spazes (for lack of better words)? Holden is able to chill out in the evenings and watch a movie when he's in the mood. I just don't understand what warrants the diagnosis of having ADHD.

Oh, I forgot to add that I was at a birthday party over the weekend for one of Holden's classmates and the father of the birthday boy told me that Mrs. McIntrye told them the exact same thing about their son and, like us, Bailey (their child) would flunk out of 1st grade if they moved him ahead. She also suggested that their child had ADHD. Apparently there are 4 boys in the class in which Mrs. McIntyre has diagnosed with ADHD and who will "fail if they go to 1st grade". Not sure how she knows this for sure, but she has definitely mad up her mind about it. Luckily, it is ultimately our choice, as the parents, to decide whether or not he is to be held back.

What do you all make of this? It is completely stressing me out!

mommy2three · Imperfect Parent Joined: 20 Dec 2002 Posts: 1674

Do yourself a favor and do some research...from a long, long, long time ago (like way back in the mid 1980's)...teachers were found to be the WORST predictors of ADD/ADHD...I would have asked her what school she went to for her post-grad work. What a dickhead...it stuns me everytime I hear about educators being so stupid.

honeybee · Queen of Imperfection Joined: 20 Dec 2002 Posts: 3163

Whoa.

I have a dozen thoughts running through my head...fist off, I am a little biased in this area, I think it is *really* over diagnosed, and like that doctor I see a lot of the misdiagnosis being behavior issues. But that is obviously not the case with Holden.

Has he been tested for food allergies? I've been reading lately that children with undiagnosed and untreated food allergies can mimic ADHD characteristics.

I wouldn't give anything his Kindergarten teacher said any merit. You said yourself that you don't think she liked Holden, and sadly that can really overshadow a teacher's outlook of a students abilities. I have issues with the "reason" she gave aswell, connecting word sounds...but again, I think she is using that as an excuse to punish him for being a pain in her rear her last year teaching. There are plenty of phonemic awareness activities that he could do over the summer to be up to snuff for 1st grade. What a hag!

Geez, I don't know. I really don't like the idea of medicating children, but again, that is my bias. Certainly there are children who do need it and respond favorably to it. That has not been my experience though. The kids I've had in classes that were medicated were like dead zombies and it broke my heart. From one extreme to the other.

prescott · Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2004 2:29 pm Post subject: Re: Is it or isn't it?

Wow, we have some typey-typers here today.

Trey'sMom · Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2004 2:47 pm Post subject: Re: Is it or isn't it?

Petulant Pixie · Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2004 2:47 pm Post subject: Is it or isn't it?

Here is a list of the DSM (the mental health bible) criteria for ADHD:

http://www.web4health.info/en/answers/adhd-diagn-dsm.htm

The only way to get a true diagnosis is with a psychologist. They do a battery of tests to analyze a child's abilities and reactions against the norm.

If I had a child who was diagnosed with ADHD, I really don't believe I would medicate. At least not for more than, say 6 months.

See, the teachers have their agenda, they need the kid to behave in class so he doesn't disrupt the other students, and they need him to learn the material. But, those goals aren't always in the kid's immediate best interest. What's in his best interest is to be in an envioronment where he can have time and space to develop coping mechanisms. The teachers say that if the child were controlled, he could learn the material, and this is true. But, then the child isn't learning skills, he's just depending upon the medication to keep him still.

I would see how he does in first grade, if he's still having problems, then get him tested. If he has ADHD, then you can make decisions based upon his strengths and weaknesses.

prescott · Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2004 3:04 pm Post subject: Is it or isn't it?

Hey, Jess, we could always homeschool!

FTR, I'm not laughing at homeschooling, I'm laughing at the thought of *us* homeschooling -- it is just *so* not in our makeup.

Jessica · Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2004 3:21 pm Post subject: Re: Is it or isn't it?

TheBean · Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2004 3:37 pm Post subject: Is it or isn't it?

HAAA This is Anna!!!

(I know this little girl and she is a bossy, precocious princess that narks on everyone. Not that I'm condoning it, but honestly, in the back of my mind I was thinking that she probably deserved it. She played a lot of tricks on Holden in the past and I think he was fed up.

Petulant Pixie · Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2004 3:44 pm Post subject: Is it or isn't it?

TheBean · Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2004 3:45 pm Post subject: Is it or isn't it?

First off, I think AAHD is over diagnosed and I think the doctor hit the nail on the head....it is parents not having any control or boundaries over their kids.

So, now onto Holden. It sounds like he may have it, as there are some indicators, and the best way to find out is to have him evaluated by the medical professionals to find out. Frankly, I WOULD medicate if it would help.

Medication can help even out hormones and stuff, and frankly I think there is a stigma in our society regarding depression or other things that medication can assist in. My feeling is, if medication can help a child fit in with the majority of the classroom, then medicate them.

If parents of kids that are disruptive in the classroom don't want to medicate, that is certainly acceptable...but I don't think the REST of the classroom shoudl have to deal with little Harry being reprimanded and told to sit down, stop doing XTZ, listen...blah blah blah blah blah...all day long. If a child isn't ready to sit in a mainstream classroom and do the work expected, then I think it is up to the school district and parents to find an acceptable solution.

I don't think MY kid...that does sit nicely, and listens, and follows the directions shoudl have HER day disrupted by the teacher constantly having to be the security police over kids that aren't able to follow directions, listen and sit and do their work.

That being said....it seems that the teachers have too much stress, too many kids, and too much curriculum to complete...and it is kids like Holden that are going to get the short end of the stick.

The school districts should be providing alternate learning environments to help kids with AAHD....there are many different techniques to TEACH, and I'm sure a creative teacher could come up with ways to keep order in teh classroom and accomodate AAHD kids without medication!

honeybee · Queen of Imperfection Joined: 20 Dec 2002 Posts: 3163

prescott · Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2004 5:52 pm Post subject: Is it or isn't it?

Wow, I think this is all a little much to be asking of a 5 year old -- special needs classes? Alternative schools? Because of one teachers jaded assessment in which a 1/4 of the boys in her class supposedly have ADHD?

As far as excluding a child from a public school classroom, that's a slippery slope, doncha think? Don't I have a right to use a classroom that my taxes pay for? And where is the line drawn -- we start to exclude kids who simply have short attention spans? Whittle down the class until it's filled with 25 stepford kids?

Somehow *I* managed to get an education while in a classroom filled with extremely varying degrees of personality and behavior traits -- that is the real world, after all -- how did the teachers possibly manage? I would even go so far as to say that if you do not want your kid exposed to that diversity, the onus is on you to send your kid to a private school.

Petulant Pixie · Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2004 6:25 pm Post subject: Is it or isn't it?

Jessica · Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2004 6:52 pm Post subject: Is it or isn't it?

The thing is, of course I am going to advocate for what's best for MY kid, and I expect you to do the same for YOUR kid.

No, you are just advocating for YOUR kid because you don't really know what's best for MY kid. Maybe what is best for MY kid to integrate into a regular classroom. I know my child and I can say with confidence that he certainly doesn't belong away from his peers. He has just as much right as any other child to be in his classroom. But you are taking your kids out of public school anyway, so you won't have to deal with kids like mine, I suppose I am getting defensive and I will make no apologies when it comes to the dignity of my children.