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mommy2three
Imperfect Parent
Joined: 20 Dec 2002
Posts: 1674
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 Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2004 6:52 am Post subject: Is it or isn't it? |
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My son has had a variety of issues in school. He started his school career with a wonderful 3yo nursery school teacher ...she adored him, the following year he ended up with a pregnant, boy hating, young teacher. If I could have strung her up I would have. By mid November it was clear that this class was not working out for ds, he didn't want to go to school, he told me that he kept on getting in trouble, tho I never received a report that he was bad. Finally around December the teacher left to have her baby, a new teacher replaced her for the year, the entire tone of the class changed and DS was happy go lucky again, greeting each school day with all he's got. The following year he got a dud of a Kindergarden teacher, not bad not good just not a teacher that belonged in Kindergarden. 1st grade he had a teacher that was an ass (she thought he should be a duplicate of his sister,  ) and second grade he was caught in an experiment in the school district; this is actually when my radar picked up a SCHOOL issue. He liked school okay, but he wasn't thrilled with the teacher and his grades miraculously were okay. I think I've mentioned before that 2nd grade is when my school district identifies problems; so you see lots of kids being diagnosed as ADHD, behavior problem label attached to them, or more often the parents are hauled in for a pow-wow and the first intitial steps for special ed begin, OT iissues are addressed. Services begin in 3rd grade.
DS was in an inclusive classroom in 3rd grade, he had 2 teachers in the classroom; special ed and a general ed teacher, mid year they got an OT para for a new phycally handicapped child. Since DD had been in one of these classes I thought nothing of it, she did fine, she was happy in that environment. DS was happy so it didn't seem to be an issue. Its a good model of classroom management. My son would have done fine no matter where he was...we've experienced the boy hating teacher, lazy teacher, problematic expectations teacher, this year we've got the teacher who is "just carrying out orders".  I have a school district which is rich in services; we have it all at each school, Psychologist, Social Worker, OT specialist, speech...you name it we have it...but in the end, my son was fine he just had a rough start.
IME; parents are the best indicator of problems...if you think your kid has a problem, have it checked out. But if even just one of you (Scott) feel that he is a *normal* boy, I'd ignore it for a bit, allow your son the time to mature a bit and see how he performs in a new classroom. Keeping in mind that kids mature at different rates...and really pre-reading skills emerge at such a WIDE range, I think that teacher should be strung up and flogged.[/b] |
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Petulant Pixie
Queen of Imperfection
Joined: 22 Apr 2002
Posts: 4140
Location: flyover country
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| Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2004 7:39 am Post subject: Is it or isn't it? |
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| The real issue is that I don't have a problem with them being in the same class as my children. That's where you struck a nerve with me. |
You're right. I don't want kids who are jumping on the desks and throwing paper airplanes and inciting the other kids into chaos in the same classroom as my kid. I want them removed until they can settle down and not disrupt the class. If Holden is this kind of child, then by all means, take it personally. If he's not, then please don't. |
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Petulant Pixie
Queen of Imperfection
Joined: 22 Apr 2002
Posts: 4140
Location: flyover country
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| Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2004 7:56 am Post subject: Is it or isn't it? |
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| Now in MY experience... while people may hypothisize that the room is out of control when there are adhd kids, blah,blah, blah...I've not seen that happen yet. |
I have seen it. I've been in the classroom when the kids are transitioning between activities and there are serious behavioral issues. Mind you, these are kids that are 8/9, so they have different issues than a 5 year old. But these are things that I have seen causing the kid to be sent to the principal/psychologist:
Teacher: Class we need to get our math books out now.
Class gets math books out, all except Matthew, who is on the floor, crawling around his desk.
Teacher: Matthew, please return to your seat and get your spelling book out.
Matthew hops into his seat and opens and slams his desk top again and again and again, so it's going BANG BANG BANG.
Most of the kids are looking at Matthew, others are ignoring him. But, nobody is doing math because the teacher is over by Matthew now saying : Matthew, that's strike one. Now, get your math book out and close your desk please.
Matthew looks her in the face and lets his desk top slam with a crash.
Teacher says : Matthew that's strike number two.
Matthew gains his composure and the teacher returns to the front of the class and tells the kids what page to open their books to. Matthew's somehow flies out of his hands and hits the kid next to him.
Teacher says: Matthew, strike three, please go to the principal's office.
I've seen kids argue about leaving the room, too. That's where the issue of them being bigger next year comes into play. Some of these 3'd graders are the same height as some of the teachers. I know there is a behavioral issue that is compounding the ADHD in these kids, probably because they're frustrated as hell and don't have a lot of self esteem from being pushed through the school up to this point.
I think that if the teacher is alone with 25 kids, she can't be expected to give extra attention to ANY kid (and believe me the "brainiacs" are the least likely to get extra attention, since they fly below the radar). |
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kathyjm
Noticably Flawed
Joined: 17 Sep 2003
Posts: 702
Location: California
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| Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2004 8:09 am Post subject: Re: Is it or isn't it? |
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Hi Eileen...
I didn't mean to imply somebody said we should yank all adhd kids out... there just seems to be a flavor to these posts (partilularly with LG's) that 'normal' kids are somehow victimized when there's an adhd kid in the picture. In my experience that's simply just not true. I totally understand YOUR POV and agree with it that help should be made available in the regular classroom with those rare cases which are extreme. But to say a room is chaotic or with paper airplanes being thrown, etc... is ingorance of ADHD. If a room is like THAT, then I would venture to say it's becuase the teacher sucks and has nothing to do with wether or not there are kids with adhd in the class.
I have ADHD but I have a form called 'overly attentive' type. with the stigma ADHD gets from the general population, noone would guess that I have it! It happens to be for me that I get too absorbed into things and can't pull away (hence I worked till friggin 2:45 am last night!)... I have a very difficult time switching tasks...this does interfere with my life and DID interfere with MY school work but it happened to appear that I fit the mold of what a student should be (quiet and focused). |
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mommy2three
Imperfect Parent
Joined: 20 Dec 2002
Posts: 1674
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| Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2004 9:08 am Post subject: Is it or isn't it? |
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I think that if the teacher is alone with 25 kids, she can't be expected to give extra attention to ANY kid (and believe me the "brainiacs" are the least likely to get extra attention, since they fly below the radar).
See, I think it comes down to the teacher. Some teachers are able to pull it off. DD was in a chaotic classroom in third grade, she was able to get *extra* from her teacher and do quite well. This particular teacher gets a bad rap fom the "mommy board" because she is eccentric, thought to favor children of color and myriad of other things and yet my gifted whitebread child did exceptionally well in her overcrowded, chaotic classroom, which had many children with behavior problems...I don't see any one form of teaching model fitting well, parents have got to be active participants, period. |
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Jessica
Queen of Imperfection
Joined: 20 Apr 2002
Posts: 4811
Location: Chi-town
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| Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2004 9:13 am Post subject: Re: Is it or isn't it? |
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| Lady Godiva wrote: |
You're right. I don't want kids who are jumping on the desks and throwing paper airplanes and inciting the other kids into chaos in the same classroom as my kid. I want them removed until they can settle down and not disrupt the class. If Holden is this kind of child, then by all means, take it personally. If he's not, then please don't. |
Holden doesn't do those things, but that's still an assholey thing to say. Whether Holden has ADHD or not, he is not a behavior problem. I think it's more that he might learn differently than other children and it's up to the teacher and the school to make it work. He has that right. We have that right. He is extremely bright. |
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Jessica
Queen of Imperfection
Joined: 20 Apr 2002
Posts: 4811
Location: Chi-town
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| Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2004 9:21 am Post subject: Re: Is it or isn't it? |
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| kathyjm wrote: |
| I didn't mean to imply somebody said we should yank all adhd kids out... there just seems to be a flavor to these posts (partilularly with LG's) that 'normal' kids are somehow victimized when there's an adhd kid in the picture. In my experience that's simply just not true. I totally understand YOUR POV and agree with it that help should be made available in the regular classroom with those rare cases which are extreme. But to say a room is chaotic or with paper airplanes being thrown, etc... is ingorance of ADHD. If a room is like THAT, then I would venture to say it's becuase the teacher sucks and has nothing to do with wether or not there are kids with adhd in the class.) |
Thank you for your insight, Kathy. I know you are extremely busy right now and I truly appreciate your taking the time to share your experience.
It's funny because I mentioned that food allergy thread to Scott last night. I think I may have been the instigator and I remember, having heard stories and after receiving so many email condemning my ignorance, I felt like a complete ass. That thread really opened my eyes and made me see that children who are different have just as much of a right to the same education as everybody else does. The most heartening story was a mother who's son was severely allergic to peanuts, yet all he could talk about was being able to go to school. He picked out his backpack a year early and talked about it every day, yet the mother could not promise him that the school would accommodate him. And all he wanted was to be treated like other children.
Anyway, I agree with you 100%. Small adjustments can be made to accommodate these children and yet people treat them like they're lepers or something. It is not the child's fault, yet other parent's see it fit to punish these children when their differences are out of their control. Sad. |
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Petulant Pixie
Queen of Imperfection
Joined: 22 Apr 2002
Posts: 4140
Location: flyover country
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| Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2004 9:29 am Post subject: Is it or isn't it? |
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| ...it's up to the teacher and the school to make it work. He has that right. We have that right. He is extremely bright. |
I guess my point is, you're putting a lot of faith in one person--the teacher--to make things all right for your kid. Last year, things were not all right for Holden. Maybe next year will be better, maybe the year after will suck. That's the gamble we all take.
But, my kid has the right to an education, too. And the behaviors I have wittnessed in his classroom (on days when his teacher was there, the behaviors were under control, on days when there was a sub, they were not), they compromise his ability to learn, IMO. These kids do have behavioral components on top of their ADHD, I have said that all along. From my experience, when you let learning disabilities go, then the kids develop behavioral problems on top of their biological disorder. They're frustrated and don't like school, which is really bad because these kids could have been caught before this point and their problems probably wouldn't have escalated so badly. But, as it was, when the problems were allowed to flourish and other kids fed off of them, it was not a good place for my kid. It's terrible when any kid hates school and doesn't want to go.
Jessica, you and I obviously have different opinions about education. I believe that any special attention and enhancement given to kids to help them on an individual basis--at any level of academic or behavioral ability--is a good thing. |
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Petulant Pixie
Queen of Imperfection
Joined: 22 Apr 2002
Posts: 4140
Location: flyover country
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| Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2004 9:36 am Post subject: Is it or isn't it? |
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| It is not the child's fault, yet other parent's see it fit to punish these children when their differences are out of their control. Sad. |
OK, you are not getting my point. I doubt you're even reading my posts now. I have explained myself and I'm very sorry that you're misunderstanding me so badly. I don't know how to explain my opinion any better, since you seem to really want me to be saying something other than what I am saying.
Kids who are out of control should not be in the regular classroom. If your child is not out of control, then I don't understand why you're taking it personally. If your child were in a classroom where other children were out of control, I would BET that you'd be advoctating for a different classroom setting as well.
The kids in Alex's classroom who are out of control are ADHD. It is true that not all children who are out of control are ADHD, or that all ADHD kids are out of control. It just happens to be the case in Alex's class.
ADHD kids do have special needs. You know that. Who is going to attend to those needs? That's the question. If it is the teacher, then how do you ensure that you will have a teacher who is willing to address those needs if you're the parent of an ADHD kid? If you're the parent of a kid who has no learning or behavioral issues, then how do you ensure that the teacher will address the special needs of other students without making your kid's school experience a living hell? |
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kathyjm
Noticably Flawed
Joined: 17 Sep 2003
Posts: 702
Location: California
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| Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2004 10:40 am Post subject: Is it or isn't it? |
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If it is the teacher, then how do you ensure that you will have a teacher who is willing to address those needs if you're the parent of an ADHD kid?
Well, that's where the disabilities act comes in. That's where as parents we are in the drivers seat and recognize that we can't be complacent and put all faith in the school. There ARE crappy teachers and there ARE good ones and there are those who just click or dont click with each child. with a 504 plan, we as parents have a tool to ENSURE that the teacher is addressing those needs.
Each year during dictation, I meet with my daughter's entire SST (student success team) which is the principal, the school psychologist, the current teacher, dh and myself. We as a team discuss what Katelynn's issues are (because they do change with time... she used to have reading comprehension issues, now she's at a 9th grade level but she's in 5th grade..she used to have handwriting problems..not so anymore, now she writes neater than I do!) and we create a plan using the teachers reccomendations. During this same meeting, we also talk about teachers and who has a teaching style that works, who has control of the classroom etc and we decide on a teacher. It's part of my daughters 504 plan that she has preferential teacher selection. Now this has been for elementary school. Next year is jr. high which is a whole nother ball game and I can already tell I'm going to have to be VIGILENT! but as my daughters parent and advocate, thats my job.
Jessica... I know this is a little premature as he may not even be diagnosed but you could read up on his rights under the americans with disabilities acts..it's federal so it applies to all public schools.
I hope you guys do seek advice from a professional. If he has it, the more knowledgeable you can get the better, ADHD is not just about hyperactivity...that's a minor component and often many kids don't have that issue...so the more you can recogize the more you can help. Also comorbity is quite common so you can be on the look out for other hidden little issues (ocd tendencies, sensory integration, etc...)...
Good luck...whatever happens happens, if he gets a label of something at some point, he's still your little Holden who love you and you love him ! If he doesn't, he's still your little Holden, kwim?? |
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prescott
Community Techie
Joined: 21 Apr 2002
Posts: 3348
Location: Outside your window
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| Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2004 11:17 am Post subject: Is it or isn't it? |
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I hate to give you a wake up call, but there are plenty of "bad" teachers at Catholic and private schools, too... unless you're homeschooling, there's always a risk that your kid is going to get a teacher that may not be up to your standards, or can't "properly" conduct class. So what's a parent to do, move the kid from school to school year after year? I think it's up to the parent to make up for the inadequacy of the school system.
You think your kid is not getting enough out of his classroom time? Fine, then add extracurricular activities to enhance their education. But to segregate out the classroom so that you have all these little groups of kids that have separate needs is a utopian view and impossible to carry out on a nationwide basis.
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| Jessica, you and I obviously have different opinions about education. I believe that any special attention and enhancement given to kids to help them on an individual basis--at any level of academic or behavioral ability--is a good thing. |
As long as it's not in your kid's classroom. |
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Petulant Pixie
Queen of Imperfection
Joined: 22 Apr 2002
Posts: 4140
Location: flyover country
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| Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2004 12:05 pm Post subject: Is it or isn't it? |
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I hate to give you a wake up call, but there are plenty of "bad" teachers at Catholic and private schools, too... unless you're homeschooling, there's always a risk that your kid is going to get a teacher that may not be up to your standards, or can't "properly" conduct class. So what's a parent to do, move the kid from school to school year after year? I think it's up to the parent to make up for the inadequacy of the school system.
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Absolutely. We've had good teachers and we've had bad teachers. Like I said, it's a gamble we all take. See, I really do believe that you guys are just scanning my posts for buzz words to piss you off. It's not fair, you're totally missing my point.
Let me try again.
OK, say you are the parent of a kid with a learning disability. Learning disability kids have "special needs", right? Those are needs that are different than the bulk of the class. Who is to provide those special needs?
In Alex's class, the special needs of the kids in question go beyond simple reminders or cues to help them use their coping skills. They haven't developed coping skills. Who is to teach them these skills, and when?
If you say the answer to these is the teacher, during class time, then how do you expect her to teach any of the other children? You do realize that time spent on one individual child means time taken away from ALL the other children?
Back when I was practicing, I was on IEP teams (individual educational program teams), we worked on what was in the best interest of the child. Being shuffled through a regular classroom with no special services to help the kid work with his disability is not in the best interest of the child.
The team would pick goals for the kid to work on every quarter. With an ADHD kid, those goals would be mostly impulse control techniques. The kid would work with a social worker or psychologist on a regular basis to learn the skills and the teacher would reinforce their use in the classroom. But, if the child was not responding to the cues and reminders that were agreed upon (by the child, the therapist and the teacher), then the kid would be sent out of the classroom to regroup.
All of this is in the best interest of the kid.
Some people believe that a traditional classroom setting is not the best place for any child. Hence the occurance of alternative schools popping up all over the place. The kids who do well in traditional settings are kids who learn in a certain way. Kids who do NOT learn in that narrow-field way of learning would be better served (happier, having more success, etc) in a school that teaches in non-traditional methods. These other teaching methods are SO successful that mainstream schools are trying hard to integrate them into their cirriculums, but mostly because of budgets, they aren't able.
So, when I suggest if I had a kid with ADHD I would use these services and alternative schools, it would be because I would think it's what's best for the kid. Not to segregate him from the general population.
Since being a parent of the kind of kids I have, I can see the flip-side of this though. And I think you're merging the two into one very prejiduced opinion that IS NOT MINE.
Kids who have behavioral issues should not be kept in the class to be dealt with. If a child becomes obstinate or disruptive, he should be removed to regroup, whether he has learning disabilities or his issues are only behavioral. It doesn't matter what the reason behind the behavior, the teacher cannot deal with those kinds of disruptions on a regular basis.
So, there are two seperate things I am talking about and you're combining them to say something that I have not said. |
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prescott
Community Techie
Joined: 21 Apr 2002
Posts: 3348
Location: Outside your window
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| Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2004 12:46 pm Post subject: Is it or isn't it? |
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| If you say the answer to these is the teacher, during class time, then how do you expect her to teach any of the other children? You do realize that time spent on one individual child means time taken away from ALL the other children? |
Then I'm confused, because I thought that's what you *were* saying that it had to do with the teacher. Alex's teacher has control when she's there, but the sub does not. So obviously there are teachers that can handle the situation.
It seems more of an issue that the district laid off this teacher, and she had to be gone a lot.
Did Alex have the same experience in 1st and 2nd grade?
BTW, in our area, we don't have alternative schools "popping up all over the place", unless you count the private academy that costs $11k per year. Who would probably have nothing to do with an ADHD child.
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| So, when I suggest if I had a kid with ADHD I would use these services and alternative schools, it would be because I would think it's what's best for the kid. Not to segregate him from the general population. |
You don't make that point clear when you say things like this:
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| You're right. I don't want kids who are jumping on the desks and throwing paper airplanes and inciting the other kids into chaos in the same classroom as my kid. I want them removed until they can settle down and not disrupt the class. |
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Petulant Pixie
Queen of Imperfection
Joined: 22 Apr 2002
Posts: 4140
Location: flyover country
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| Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2004 1:31 pm Post subject: Is it or isn't it? |
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Alex's teacher has control when she's there, but the sub does not. So obviously there are teachers that can handle the situation.
It seems more of an issue that the district laid off this teacher, and she had to be gone a lot.
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His teacher did keep things under control, but the kids were sent out of the room to regroup when their behavior was out of control.
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Did Alex have the same experience in 1st and 2nd grade?
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In first grade, no. In second grade, the entire class was out of control most of the time. It was a worthless year and the teacher had no control of the class.
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I said:
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So, when I suggest if I had a kid with ADHD I would use these services and alternative schools, it would be because I would think it's what's best for the kid. Not to segregate him from the general population. |
You said:
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You don't make that point clear when you say things like this:
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about this other thing I had said:
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| You're right. I don't want kids who are jumping on the desks and throwing paper airplanes and inciting the other kids into chaos in the same classroom as my kid. I want them removed until they can settle down and not disrupt the class. |
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You're combining two different things here again. Do YOU want kids in YOUR son's class who are throwing paper airplanes, jumping on the desks and inciting other children, or can you think of a better way for them to be spending their time? If they don't respond to reasonable cues from the teacher ("You need to be in your seat, please.") then they need to be removed from the class--regardless of what issue lies behind the behavior. Don't you agree? Or do you believe mayhem is just to be tolerated? [/quote] |
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prescott
Community Techie
Joined: 21 Apr 2002
Posts: 3348
Location: Outside your window
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| Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2004 1:51 pm Post subject: Is it or isn't it? |
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Part of the problem may be that *you* are combining these two totally separate ideas into one stream of thought, such as:
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In Alex's class, the special needs of the kids in question go beyond simple reminders or cues to help them use their coping skills. They haven't developed coping skills. Who is to teach them these skills, and when?
If you say the answer to these is the teacher, during class time, then how do you expect her to teach any of the other children? You do realize that time spent on one individual child means time taken away from ALL the other children?
Back when I was practicing, I was on IEP teams (individual educational program teams), we worked on what was in the best interest of the child. Being shuffled through a regular classroom with no special services to help the kid work with his disability is not in the best interest of the child. |
One paragraph you're stating that not removing the child is wrecking things for the rest of the kids, the other you say removing them is for the good of the child. I'm not really sure what the argument is here, or what exactly we're supposedly trying to twist your words into saying.
Anyhow, I'm done. This was supposed to be a support thread, not a bitch about how out of control kids are wrecking the school. Pretty insensitive, IMO. I almost feel as if you are projecting what you want to say to those kids' parents in Alex's class onto us, quite frankly. |
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